Passkeys are built on the FIDO2 standard (CTAP2 + WebAuthn standards). They remove the shared secret, stop phishing at the source, and make credential-stuffing useless.
But adoption is still low, and interoperability between Apple, Google, and Microsoft isn’t seamless.
I broke down how passkeys work, their strengths, and what’s still missing
if it undermines or circumvents my fifth amendment right not to testify against myself, then I’m not interested in ending the use of passwords.
You can set a pin on most passkey devices so that it doesn’t serve the authentication without it.
While the lock-in issue is annoying and a good reason not to adopt these, the device failure issue is a tech killer. Especially when I can use a password manager. This means I can remember two passwords (email and password manager), make them secure, and then always recover all my accounts.
Passkeys are a technology that were surpassed 10 years before their introduction and I believe the only reason they are being pushed is because security people think they are cool and tech companies would be delighted to lock you into their system.
Not to mention Apple decided to make passkeys Airdropable. Fun.
I worked on a cool projected called FedID: https://fedid.me/ that creates a distributed identifier (DID) out in the world, federated with AvtivityPub, and gives you a key you can sign in with via OpenID Connect. It allows the DID to have multiple keys for multiple devices, and delegate authority, so losing a device/failure is no big deal.
That being said, Web passkeys can be stored in password managers, just like passwords.
Cops also love them because they make getting access to your entire phone including all accounts simple as cake if you use fingerprint/faceID to unlock your device.
its being pushed because corporations want to control your passwords with lock-in.
no way i’m using that garbage over my own manager with recallable plaintext passwords.
You can transfer passkeys between platforms? This is a non-issue
all at once? i don’t think so.
even then, corporate apps will always remove convenient features later for lock-in. i don’t fall for this shit anymore.
Passkeys are a technology that were surpassed 10 years before their introduction
Question is by what? I could see an argument that it is an overcomplication of some ill-defined application of x509 certificates or ssh user keys, but roughly they all are comparable fundamental technologies.
The biggest gripe to me is that they are too fussy about when they are allowed and how they are stored rather than leaving it up to the user. You want to use a passkey to a site that you manually trusted? Tough, not allowed. You want to use against an IP address, even if that IP address has a valid certificate? Tough, not allowed.
They were surpassed by password managers and 2fa.
Technically they are the 2fa. The second factor is something you have. I store all my passkeys in my password manager too, so I’m not faulting you, but technically that’s just undoing the second factor, because now my two factors are “two things that are both unlocked by the same one thing I know”. Which is one complicated factor spread across two form fields.
Password managers are a workaround, and broadly speaking the general system is still weak because password managers have relatively low adoption and plenty of people are walking around with poorly managed credentials. Also doesn’t do anything to mitigate a phishing attack, should the user get fooled they will leak a password they care about.
2FA is broad, but I’m wagering you specifically mean TOTP, numbers that change based on a shared secret. Problems there are: -Transcribing the code is a pain -Password managers mitigate that, but the most commonly ‘default’ password managers (e.g. built into the browser) do nothing for them -Still susceptible to phishing, albeit on a shorter time scale
Pub/priv key based tech is the right approach, but passkey does wrap it up with some obnoxious stuff.
password managers have relatively low adoption and plenty of people are walking around with poorly managed credentials
All of the modern browsers have built in password managers so I doubt that very much.
Are they as secure as your self-hosted bit warden that is not accessible via the Internet? No.
But it does still keep track of your usernames and even alerts you if you have a breach.
Ok, I’ll concede that Chrome makes Google a relatively more popular password manager than I considered, and it tries to steer users toward generated passwords that are credible. Further by being browser integrated, it mitigates some phishing by declining to autofill with the DNS or TLS situation is inconsistent. However I definitely see people discard the suggestions and choose a word and think ‘leet-speak’ makes it hard (“I could never remember that, I need to pick something I remember”). Using it for passwords still means the weak point is human behavior (in selecting the password, in opting not to reuse the password, and in terms of divulging it to phishing attempt).
If you ascribe to Google password manager being a good solution, it also handles passkeys. That removes the ‘human can divulge the fundamental secret that can be reused’ while taking full advantage of the password manager convenience.
I use them with bitwarden and a self hosted vaultwarden. If my phone breaks, no issue. If my server breaks, I got local backups… Keys are stored encrypted in a postgres database for which I have access, if I need to restore it. No lock-in issue or risk of loosing access when one or two devices break.
That sounds great, but also isn’t a solution for most people.
True. But most good stuff isn’t a solution for everyone. It takes real effort to escape vendor-lockin. Bigtech made sure of that.
If something is too simple to set up or requires no set up, or comes from a for-profit company, but doesn’t cost anything, then it always suspicious.
I am just saying that the issue is not with passkey itself, but the individual implementations and that google/twitter/etc. is pushed towards regular users.
Critiquing passkey because vendor-lockin is like critiquing HTML for allowing ads.
Even if you are really careful, your details can always be leaked from a company server during a breach. If the companies adopt passkeys, that issue isn’t there. Because there isn’t a password anyone can randomly use. That’s why I feel big tech companies are moving towards it.
Yes, you have to trust the company storing the passwords.
A good company can store passwords in ways that are secure to most hacking attempts. It isn’t impossible to break the encryption typically used, but it is difficult enough that most thieves will not have the resources or time to make use of the data. They want the low effort password databases, not the difficult and expensive ones.
Tried Passkey in the past. I had many problems, especially could not understand why they must use my google account. Now my google account is gone, don’t gonna go that rabbit hole again, i am happy with my Bitwarden and Aegis.
Bitwarden does support access to access keys in (for example) firefox.
I have not tested outside of browser (firefox). So it may depend on if you use chrome or some other app.Edit: Just got a suggestion inside the Amazon app (Android. Yes, I hate Amazon as well but I got a gift card and I hate it even more to give them a free of charge credit) to add a passkey. So it seems to work (semi-)reliable outside of a browser.
You can now use thirds parties APIs for Passkey. I use ProtonPass on my part, it works great most of the time, but there are still some apps that have Google provider hard-coded.
Just don’t take away passwords + TOTP 2FA for those of us who are actually using it correctly.
lets just hold the line of “the answer is always username/password + second factor”.
could be username/password + totp…
could be username/password + passkey…
if someone figures out my password, i dont lose everything…
if someone steals my passkey, i dont lose everything…
even if i do use the same password for everything, the second factor has it covered.
(nobody will ever guess my password of ******** anyway!)
The biggest disadvantage:
Disadvantages of Passkeys
Ecosystem Lock-In – Passkey pairs are synced through each vendor’s respective clouds via end-to-end encryption to facilitate seamless access multiple devices.
More eggs in the American megacorp basket for more people, yay
Currently I use a FOSS (I think?) password manager, BitWarden, that supports passkeys. I use it across Mac, Windows and Android so I’m while my passkeys are locked yo the password manager, I am not locked to any of the aforementioned megacorps.
While I use and love bitwarden, it’s not exactly foss. Although there is a foss implementation of their server backend
Vaultwarden (the free server implementation) also supports passkeys.
A cursory search lead to this thread from 2024 https://community.bitwarden.com/t/concerns-over-bitwarden-moving-away-from-open-source-what-does-our-future-hold/74800
where an employee stated
I’ll note that policy wise nothing changed. The referenced issue is a packaging bug, but the goal still is the dual licensing model, with the core being open source, and some (mostly enterprise) features being source-available.
Both the client and server are mostly open source. Some server features are paywalled. The alternative Vaultwarden server is fully open source, and much lighter on system resources.
Have there been any recent licensing shenanigans with BitWarden?
I use BitWarden too. OS , device and browser agnostic is a win
But I imagine the vast amount of people will use whatever their platform is pushing, so Apple Google or Microsoft. And in 5 years time “3rd party passkeys” are not “secure enough” and blocked by the OS. (Ok that’s a bit tinfoil hat, but Google’s recent Android app developer verification scheme is fresh in mind)
That’s not the biggest disadvantage “if used properly.” Any account you have should get a passkey on every device you own. Each device has it’s own passkey system. If you have an iPhone, yeah, you get an apple passkey, but then if you have a windows laptop, you have a microsoft passkey, a FLOSS system will have it’s own, and so on. You are already on whatever system would contain the passkey and can easily add different ones each time you get a new device.
The biggest issue is that most people use a small number of devices (including many who use 1). Passkeys work best if you have many devices, so if you lose one, you just use another to access your services. If you have 1, you need to use recovery codes (and people don’t save them).
A key for each service for each device is too impractical in real life.
Getting a new device would mean logging in to hundreds of services to link up the new device. Or somehow keep track of which services have keys with which devices. And signing up to a new service would mean having to remember to generate keys for a a handfull of devices, some of which might not be available at the time (like a desktop computer at home when you are out). Or you risk getting logged out if you loose the one device that had a key for that particular service.
I agree passkeys can make sense with something like BitWarden or KeyPassX. Something that is FOSS, and is OS and device agnostic, and let’s you sync keys across devices. And should have independent backups too. Sync is not backup.
Your password hashes (assuming they even hash them) already live on their servers…
Cool, they know the hash to that one service I signed up with them. Not every account ever.
Your passkeys aren’t synced to anything, so the passkey is no different than your password hash. They’re device locked unless you use something like bitwarden, so you’re no more dependent on American mega corps than you are right this second.I’m wrong.
Dont they all sync to the respective cloud services?
iOS vault -> synced apple cloud Android vault -> synced with Google cloud?
Windows Hello -> synced with Microsoft account?And if they’re not synced, that’s even worse. Loose your device and loose your account. Or keep track of which of your 5 devices are have keys for which of your 150 accounts
Well shit, you’re right. I must not have been paying attention when they updated them to include that
Say you don’t understand passkeys without saying you don’t understand them…
A passkey uses public key cryptography to secure your account instead of a password, it only grants you access to the one account you set it up for, and the account provider only holds your public key, you control the private key. Your passkey is a secure alternative to passwords because you CANNOT reuse it across services, cannot reasonably remember it, and the method of using it isn’t by copying and pasting into a field like a password, so it isn’t susceptible to the same attacks.
If the provider loses your public key, they can’t give you a challenge to verify you have the private key, so you lose access. Just like if they lose your password hash. It’s an identical scenario.
Everything you said is correct, but you misunderstood my point. I was referring to the fact that Google/Apple/whatever would hold your private key. In practical terms, it is barely different from the existing “Sign in with Google/Apple/whatever”.
The assumption is that the native passkey manager on the device (iPhone, android, windows) would sync the passkeys (to Apple , Google, Microsoft) for protection against device failure and easy of use across devices. Or you risk loosing your accounts if you loose your device.
That would happen if you store your passwords there too…
If you’re proactive enough with your passwords to manually store them in your own vault, you can be proactive enough to not use the corporate vaults that don’t allow exporting. This isn’t a “downside” of passkeys, it’s a downside of using the built in managers.
Better title:
Passkeys: still trying to explain why it’s worth the hassle when it isn’t
There’s a hassle?
Every time I was prompted to use one by plugging my phone in to my computer nothing happened. That was a little over a year ago.
A better, well defined API for password managers to insert login information to the site compared to text boxes.
I don’t want to boot up a fucking android VM to run some login app every time I need to log into an unimportant account that realistically I would have used “el-passwordo” for the password if it let me.
You can use browser extensions, not sure why you’d think you’d have to run an android VM lmfao
I just know the one my employer forces me to use can’t be. Need to use the stupid microsoft app.
Not sure if that’s actually a “passkey” in the same sense then, MS is doing its own shit for sure. I use vaultwarden/bitwarden and can save standard passkeys there no problem.
Then that is not what the article is about…
I use Passkeys with Bitwarden in desktop Firefox, but for some reason I can’t get them to work in GrapheneOS/Vanadium even though I have Bitwarden set as my password provider
The promise of passkeys when i first grad about them was that it would be quick and easy - that you wouldn’t need to enter a username or use 2fa. The reality appears to be that this is that it’s used ** as** 2fa
Personally, I found that It works well with Microsoft, Paypal, Google, Shopify and Proton. I was really surprised to find the option on German government sites, worked there as well. Tested in Ungoogled Chromium and Librewolf. The only thing I find dissappointing is adoption
hot take: end users will be more likely to adopt security keys (or device attested passkey which = security key). Physical security, out-of-bounds cryptography to defeat AitM attacks (fake landing pages where six digit codes are stolen and silently used in perpetuity by the bad actor)
source: my job is to try to get end users to put strong MFA on all the things.
Yeah totally not going to be misused by corporations with proprietary cryptographic-algorithm
seems like too much messing around to make it a widespread solution.
Acrually not really.
I do use it with my password manager.
Very convenient.BUT, it’s not hardware based so more suscepticle to attacks.
i see. gotta try it out for myself
They’re device-bound certificate based authentication with some shiny bits.
Or they’re portable-via-certain-services certificate based authentication with some shiny bits.
Either way they’re new and try explaining that the user needs a new one for every device (or needs a new app to carry them around in) and that if the device dies, or the app dies, they lose it all. I have quite a few people in my life who can’t wrap their heads around using a password manager.
Personally, I find them irritating. My chosen password manager on iPhone doesn’t support them, so I need to have the iOS password vault turned on (yes, this is a dark pattern Apple has created to try to increase adoption of their password vault) to use them. Adoption needs to be much higher, interoperability needs to be better, and they need to put back the hint for which vault to use (which was removed early on to keep Microsoft and google from forcing chrome/edge vaults, but has the actual effect that chrome/edge tend to win the race over other options and means that the passkey prompt might be for a different app than the one that you prefer, leading to further user confusion)
I really don’t want to turn my devices into hardware keys. I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to recover if, say, there was a fire or flood. Hardware breaks, gets lost, stolen. How about people who can’t afford multiple devices? What about the unhoused? How about if you get arrested and your one device gets confiscated- you can’t even give anyone else access to your data. What if you’re a good witness recording something and the police decide to make your device into evidence (or destroy it).
MFA? Absofuckinglutely. I’ll pass on passkeys, sorry.
Yeah this is my situation. My personal computer is really infrequently used and as such I’m already in a dangerous situation when it comes to sign-in risk detection kicking off and asking for further authn proofs. I’ve had my phone die (and come to life when its replacement arrived) and that was a harrowing situation because all the MFA is stored there. Passkeys seem to make it worse, unless I subscribe to a sync service, which I need to infallibly trust (and I’m iffy on that; 1Password has a good security model and all that but passkeys are a different level of trust).
Think of passkeys like they’re backups.
If you have one, you have none. If you have two, you have one. If you have three, at least one of them has to live offsite.
There are a ton of people who can’t reliably meet the “three” threshold, and plenty who can’t meet the two.
Good way of putting it. How many people have three devices they can use for storing passkeys? I don’t and I’m a nerd.
I do; or at least I can. But really, Device #2 should be in a fire safe, and Device #3 should be in a safe deposit box. These should be “set and forget” devices, not just “the laptop that I use and the phone that I use”. Those are additional costs, additional planning, additional effort, additional administration (because you need to also be checking that these cold devices still work on a scheduled basis), maybe additional required skill (depending on what you want these set and forget devices to be). You need to have an appropriate place to keep that fire safe. And when one of those cold devices doesn’t work anymore, you have to figure out why and likely replace it.
To do it right, you really have to have your shit together. That I don’t.
I mean, I wouldn’t mind if I could use my flipper for it, but the big issue is “if flipper break get fucked.” I can back up my .kdbx file in 14 luks encrypted locations, I can’t backup a whole ass flipper as easily.
You missed some disadvantages. For example the UX and complexity are terrible.
Nope.
