No shit. All they have to do is finally grow the balls to build SSD’s in the same form factor as the 3.5" drives everyone in enterprise is already using, and stuff those to the gills with flash chips.
“But that will cannibalize our artificially price inflated/capacity restricted M.2 sales if consumers get their hands on them!!!”
Yep, it sure will. I’ll take ten, please.
Something like that could easily fill the oodles of existing bays that are currently filled with mechanical drives, both in the home user/small scale enthusiast side and existing rackmount stuff. But that’d be too easy.
Hate to break it to you, but the 3.5" form factor would absolutely not be cheaper than an equivalent bunch of E1.S or M.2 drives. The price is not inflated due to the form factor, it’s driven primarily by the cost of the NAND chips, and you’d just need more of them to take advantage of bigger area. To take advantage of the thickness of the form factor, it would need to be a multi-board solution. Also, there’d be a thermal problem, since thermal characteristics of a 3.5" application are not designed with the thermal load of that much SSD.
Add to that that 3.5" are currently maybe 24gb SAS connectors at best, which means that such a hypothetical product would be severely crippled by the interconnect. Throughput wise, talking about over 30 fold slower in theory than an equivalent volume of E1.S drives. Which is bad enough, but SAS has a single relatively shallow queue while an NVME target has thousands of deep queues befitting NAND randam access behavior. So a product has to redesign to vaguely handle that sort of product, and if you do that, you might as well do EDSFF. No one would buy something more expensive than the equivalent capacity in E1.S drives that performs only as well as the SAS connector allows,
The EDSFF defined 4 general form factors, the E1.S which is roughly M.2 sized, and then E1.L, which is over a foot long and would be the absolute most data per cubic volume. And E3.S and E3.L, which wants to be more 2.5"-like. As far as I’ve seen, the market only really wants E1.S despite the bigger form factors, so I tihnk the market has shown that 3.5" wouldn’t have takers.
I hope youre not putting m.2 drives in a server if you plan on reading the data from them at some point. Those are for consumers and there’s an entirely different formfactor for enterprise storage using nvme drives.
Enterprise systems do have m.2, though admittedly its only really used as pretty disposable boot volumes.
Though they aren’t used as data volumes so much, it’s not due to unreliability, it’s due to hot swap and power levels.
Tell me, what would be the issue of reading data from an m.2 drive in a server?
M.2 drives like to get hot and die. They work great until they don’t.
Sounds to me like you need to work on the cooling in your server case.
TBH i have an old ssd for the host and rust for all my data. Don’t have m.2 or u.2 in my server but I’ve heard enough horror stories to just use u.2 if the time comes.
As soon as I can get a 20TB SSD for ~$325-350, let me know. Until then, lol.
Haven’t they said that about magnetic tape as well?
Some 30 years ago?
Isn’t magnetic tape still around? Isn’t even IBM one of the major vendors?
Anyone who has said that doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Magnetic tape is unparalleled for long-term/archival storage.
This is completely different. For active storage, solid-state has been much better than spinning rust for a long time, it’s just been drastically more expensive. What’s being argued here is that it’s not performant and while it might be more expensive initially, it’s less expensive to run and maintain.
Tape will survive, SSDs will survive. Spinning rust will die
Hard drives have longer shelf life than unpowered SSD. HDD are a good middle ground between SSD speeds, tape drive stability, and price they won’t go anywhere. The data world exists in tiers
The flaw with hard drives comes with large pools. The recovery speed is simply too slow when a drive fails, unless you build huge pools. So you need additional drives for more parity.
I don’t know who cares about shelf life. Drives spin all their lives, which is 5-10 years. Use M-Disk or something if you want shelf life.
That’s all circumstantial.
Right up until an EMP wipes out all our data. I still maintain that we should be storing all our data on vinyl, doing it physically is the only guarantee.
Microsoft has project Silica where they store data in glass. Being electromagnetic field-proof is one of the stated goals.
That’s a WORM medium though, so really purely for storage. Which is still extremely useful of course.
I’ll shed no tears, even as a NAS owner, once we get equivalent capacity SSD without ruining the bank :P
Considering the high prices for high density SSD chips…
Why are there no 3.5" SSDs with low density chips?Not enough of a market
The industry answer is if you want that much volume of storage, get like 6 edsff or m.2 drives.
3.5 inch is a useful format for platters, but not particularly needed to hold nand chips. Meanwhile instead of having to gate all those chips behind a singular connector, you can have 6 connectors to drive performance. Again, less important for a platter based strategy which is unlikely to saturate even a single 12 gb link in most realistic access patterns, but ssds can keep up with 128gb with utterly random io.
Tiny drives means more flexibility. That storage product can go into nas, servers, desktops, the thinnest laptops and embedded applications, maybe wirh tweaked packaging and cooling solutions. A product designed for hosting that many ssd boards behind a single connector is not going to be trivial to modify for any other use case, bottleneck performance by having a single interface, and pretty guaranteed to cost more to manufacturer than selling the components as 6 drives.
Meanwhile Western Digital moves away from SSD production and back to HDDs for massive storage of AI and data lakes and such: https://www.techspot.com/news/107039-western-digital-exits-ssd-market-shifts-focus-hard.html
Yea but isn’t that more because SanDisk is going to fully focus on that? Or what am I missing?
That SanDisk is it’s own company now.
But I don’t k ow if they are still a subsidiary or completely spun of WD.
Spinning rust is a funny way of describing HDDs, but I immediately get it
Hdds were a fad, I’m waiting for the return of tape drives. 500TB on a $20 cartridge and I can live with the 2 minute seek time.
Tape drives are still definitely a thing.
If you exclude the introductory price of the drive and needing specialized software to read/write to it it’s very affordable €/TB
It’s not a real hard disk unless you can get it to walk across the server room anyway.
Probably at some point as prices per TB continue to come down. I don’t know anyone buying a laptop with a HDD these days. Can’t imagine being likely to buy one for a desktop ever again either. Still got a couple of old ones active (one is 11 years old) but I do plan to replace them with SSDs at some point.
But you don’t need 32TB storage per drive in your laptop.
I don’t know that sounds like a reasonable size for the new GTA.
Then how will I fit my porn folder on it?
My datacenter is 80% nvme at this point. Just naturally. It’s crazy.
Nvme is terrible value for storage density. There is no reason to use it except when you need the speed and low latency.
There’s a cost associated with making that determination and managing the storage tiering. When the NVME is only 3x more expensive per amount of data compared to HDD at scale, and “enough” storage for OS volume at the chepaest end where you can either have a good enough HDD or a good enough SDD at the same price, then OS volume just makes sense to be SSD.
In terms of “but 3x is pretty big gap”, that’s true and does drive storage subsystems, but as the saying has long been, disks are cheap, storage is expensive. So managing HDD/SDD is generally more expensive than the disk cost difference anyway.
BTW, NVME vs. non-NVME isn’t the thing, it’s NAND v. platter. You could have an NVME interfaced platters and it would be about the same as SAS interfaced platters or even SATA interfaced. NVME carried a price premium for a while mainly because of marketing stuff rather than technical costs. Nowadays NVME isn’t too expensive. One could make an argument that number of PCIe lanes from the system seems expensive, but PCIe switches aren’t really more expensive than SAS controllers, and CPUs have just so many innate PCIe lanes now.
I generally agree, it won’t take long for SSDs to be cheap enough to justify the expense. HDD is in a way similar to CD/DVD, it had it’s time, it even lasted much longer than expected, but eventually technology became cheaper and the slightly cheaper price didn’t make sense any more.
SSD wins on all account for live systems, and long term cold storage goes to tapes. Not a lot of reasons to keep them around.
I’m about to build a home server with a lot of storage (relatively, around 6 or 8 times 12 TB as a ballpark), and I didn’t even consider anything other than spinning drives so far.
Because spinning disks are a bit cheaper than SSD?
Especially for large sizes. Also speed isn’t really much of an issue on a domestic network.
Just replace then all with flash, along with bluray (or other optical storage) for archival.
Optical media is not good for archival unless you’re buying discs specifically manufactured for archival purposes.
I had a terrible experience through all my life with HDDs. Slow af, sector loss, corruption, OS corruption… I am traumatized. I got 8TB NvMe for less than $500… Since then I have not a single trouble (well except I n electric failure, BTRFS CoW tends to act weird and sometimes doesnt boot, you need manual intervention)
I agree that single HDDs are terrible, but once you raid multiple of them together, it becomes much better. And now with zfs even better still
Sounds like you may not be making enough sacrifices to The Omnisiah
/s
I doubt it. SSDs are subject to quantuum tunneling. This means if you don’t power up an SSD once in 2-5 years, your data is gone. HDDs have no such qualms. So long as they still spin, there’s your data and when they no longer do, you still have the heads inside.
So you have a use case that SSDs will never replace, cold data storage. I use them for my cold offsite back ups.
Sorry dude, but bit rot is a very real thing on HDDs. They’re magnetic media, which degrades over time. If you leave a disk cold for 2-5 years, there’s a very good chance you’ll get some bad sectors. SSDs aren’t immune from bit rot, but that’s not through quantum tunneling - not any more than your CPU is affected by it at least.
I did not meant to come across as saying that HDDs don’t suffer bit rot. However, there are specific long term storage HDDs that are built specifically to be powered up sporadically and resist external magnetic influences on the track. In a proper storage environment they will last over 5 years without being powered up and still retain all information. I know it because i use them in this exact scenario for over 2 decades. Conversely there are no such long term storage SSDs.
SSDs store information through trapped charges which most certainly lose charge through quantuum tunneling as well as generalized charge leakage. As insulation loses effectiveness, the potential barrier for the charge allows for what is normally a manageable effect, much like in the CPU like you said, to become out of the scope of error correction techniques. This is a physical limitation that cannot be overcome.
Nothing in this article is talking about cold storage. And if we are talking about cold storage, as others gave pointed out, HHDs are also not a great solution. LTO (magnetic tape) is the industry standard for a good reason!
Tape storage is the gold standard but it’s just not realistically applicable to low scale operations or personal data storage usage. Proper long term storage HDDs do exist and are perfectly adequate to the job as i specified above and i can attest this from personal experience.
You’re wrong. HDD need about as much frequently powering up as SSD, because the magnetization gets weaker.
Note that for HDDs, it doesn’t matter if they’re powered or not. The platter is not “energized” or refreshed during operation like an SSD is. Your best bet is to have some kind of parity to identify and repair those bad bits.
Here’s a copy paste from superuser that will hopefully show you that what you said is incorrect in a way i find expresses my thoughts exactly
Magnetic Field Breakdown
Most sources state that permanent magnets lose their magnetic field strength at a rate of 1% per year. Assuming this is valid, after ~69 years, we can assume that half of the sectors in a hard drive would be corrupted (since they all lost half of their strength by this time). Obviously, this is quite a long time, but this risk is easily mitigated - simply re-write the data to the drive. How frequently you need to do this depends on the following two issues (I also go over this in my conclusion).
https://superuser.com/questions/284427/how-much-time-until-an-unused-hard-drive-loses-its-data
