so it doesnt work
motherfuckers acting like those laptops aren’t five hundred bajillion dollars
Exactly, my last laptop was €800 but I remember looking for a similar (in terms of CPU) Framework laptop and it was around €1200 if I remember correctly, not an insignificant difference for a student.
I was really determined to get one, partially because I love the cotton candy pink, don’t judge. But now that memory and ram prices went up, it went from a premium price to absolutely insane. I’m just gonna stick with my old thinkpad another decade or so at this rate.
Yeah, I was about to say: with the prices of new machines nowadays, whenever all mine eventually conk out, I may just try to get used machines for pennies on the dollar at estate sales and revive them with Linux, haha.
Price point is bad…
Price point is fine for a “new” laptop.
Unfortunately, most of us obsessed with repairable laptops are also okay with refurbed at like a tenth the price.
Sure, a framework is more repairable than a thinkpad. But the point is to reduce ewaste. I can more easily reduce ewaste by buying this repairable enough laptop from eBay for $200-$400 vs $1200 without ram or ssd
Lmk when they’re corebooted.
Otherwise I’ll stick with system76 or starlabs.
Just wondering, what does coreboot do that the oss bios framework uses doesnt do?
As far as I know framework only has open source embedded controller hardware NOT EUFI.
Either way there isn’t a way to neutralize/disable Intel ME on those machines.
Insyde is a full eufi bios afaik. But fair enough, i cant comment on the intel me thing as my framework is an amd model 😅
Framework feels like a bit of a gimmick to me, it’s basically dongles, but they’re built into the machine. I’d rather have a decent selection of ports out of the box.
Even the headphone jack is an option you need to buy, it’s silly.
Even the headphone jack is an option you need to buy, it’s silly.
This is only true of the 16; the 12 and 13 have it built in. That makes me think there was a technical reason.
The important bit is that you can choose which ports you want and that they sit flush in the chassis so you don’t have to carry a dongle.
I think you’ve missed the point of framework laptops.
What other laptops can you change the gpu or screen on?
Screen changing is not a problem since eDP became the default. I swapped the panel on mine to a completely different one a few times already.
You can change the screen on my t480. Lots of things can be changed on it. It also cost less than $200.
Great, now can you change the GPU? Add another usb-c port? Add a 3.5mm port?
I prefer the off lease commercial thinkpads too, but I am glad someone is actually creating new stuff for that market. The used thinkpad market can’t grow.
OK, but how many people actually want to do that?
People that are here.
Me which is why I bought one, and several of the people who have seen me work with mine now want one for these reasons too. If my screen (or any component) craps out it is super easy to replace with minimal e-waste. Once I’m out of school and into the workforce I’m going to buy one of the GPUs probably a used one further reducing e-waste. If I want more storage space it takes like 5 minutes to swap a drive out. Love the thing
Not the screen, but it would be nice if I could replace the keyboard on my laptop, since it doesn’t work properly any more.
But since it’s built into the lower body, it costs about as much to replace as the device is worth, so I just make do with also carrying a Bluetooth keyboard.
Tip of the day: You can order replacement parts cheap from EBay or AliExpress and there are service manuals and instructions and even videos for plenty of common computers.
It may sound scary but it is really not that difficult. It’s mostly finding all the screws and knowing what order to pick everything apart and put it back again.
To me the point of framework is that it can endure amateur repair rely well.
I have repaired a fair amount of device in my life, companies without a focus on repair will have fragile cabel and components. And everytime I open it up, there would be a high chance of me breaking something, forcing me to use a broken device.
Repair and cleaning will need to happen every two or three years for most electronics, and that usually means I will live with a corky device for the next two years, then produce a bunch of ewastes consists of mostly perfectly functioning device, except one critical component failure.
Even the headphone jack is an option you need to buy, it’s silly.
no, that’s included on FW13
I own a framework and the dongles are the only thing I would change. I think it would better if the whole side is replaceable with preconfigured IO. As its right now its alot of space wasted. I think the MNT Reform does it like that.
Agreed. Give me a chonky 2000 era wall of ports along the side. I’m weird though, and people like thin laptops they can hold in one hand.
I have a framework 13. Last week I noticed my battery had gone spicy pillow. Screwed it open, removed the battery and ordered a new one. A few days later I got the new battery, put it in and screwed everything back together. Took me less than 30 minutes in total, got original parts and not some sketchy Amazon crap, was less complicated than repairing my desktop PC. This is how you do repairable tech.
I have my fw13 plugged in almost all the time. So I set the battery max charge to 60%.
If I really need more juice, I can set it back to 100, but I basically never need that.
Was the battery covered by warranty?
Amazing. I did the same on my 2012 macbook air, and a friend’s Asus notebook. My 2019 Lenovo is still going strong, I expect to get 10y of lifetime out of it. Oh, and Lenovo spare parts are dime a dozen. I have rebuilt old Lenovos multiple times in my life, typically by buying a broken donor machine.
So exactly what is the business case for buying a Framework Notebook?
(Yes, they are really beautiful, cool and I’d WANT one. But there always was a better option to buy, for one reason - price: used Lenovo, portability: MacBook Air)
I’m thinking of a framework for my next machine but I have been using laptops for decades. Still have a Linux one from 2014. None of them get spicy pillow. So… just luck of the draw?
I guess. I’ve had a hp convertible previously and it also got the spicy pillow. Just my luck I guess. The difference was, that the hp one had shifty screws and lots of glue and the case was permanently deformed by the expanding battery. In comparison the experience with my framweork was just so much better
Almost nobody
Sure, repairability enthusiasts have bought Framework laptops in the hundreds of thousands
Pick a lane there, XDA…
XDA is pretty much slop these days.
So few that if you order one now you only have to wait til October to get it.
I didn’t know they existed, so that might be a factor too. Need some better advertising
Advertising is expensive as hell. Probably not a huge budget. The products kinda sell themselves in the right circles.
They even mention how the point is to buy the whole laptop once and then upgrade or repair it, instead of buying an entirely new laptop. Of course they’re selling fewer laptops than anyone making mediocre netbooks
But that’s not that easily quantifiable so it’s bad /s
MBAs in a nutshell
Well, what is hundreds of thousands as a percentage of the overall market? Like if they sold hundreds of thousands of grains of rice, that’s “almost nothing” compared to the rest of the rice that got sold
In no context is that “almost nobody”.
In many contexts it is.
Windows Phone sold millions of phones, yet it was almost nobody in terms of the market, and as such basically no app developers supported it.
Wrong
I mean, Dell is the #3 in laptop sales and sells roughly 30 million laptops per year. So yeah, Framework is roughly 0% of market share. I know this is a very tech enthusiast heavy website, but there are certain realities that people should face. It’s like saying Nothing Phone is going to remotely compete with Apple. It’s not a fair or valid comparison in the first place. I think a more fair comparison for Framework (beyond what they are hoping to achieve) would be with a small system builder like System 76, XMG or the likes.
This is not a reality anyone needs to “face”, it’s just an intentionally poor choice of words.
“Most of the market” includes the segments of commercial support contracts for office laptops which Framework doesn’t even target. Then you have the next biggest which is "go to Costco/Walmary/bestbuy and get what is on sale. So Framework simply cannot be a majority brand without those.
Among the remaining segment, e.g., developers that get to shop around and buy whatever they want? Its fairly popular.
I don’t understand what you mean in your first point. There are clear pathways for companies and schools to buy in bulk on the framework website. Not saying that FW is successful in that way but it is there.
I agree on your second point but would tie it to marketing. Having your laptop on sale at Costco is a marketing strategy, which for better or for worse, FW doesn’t do right now (and probably doesn’t have the ability to do)
Their argument is that only enthusiasts want these laptops, but an average customer doesn’t care about them.
That argument falls flat because Android rose to prominence on the backs of enthusiast recommendations.
Comes from the corporate mindset where only growth is good. Just existing as a company that’s makes stuff for a small group of people is somehow ‘incorrect’ to these crazy people.
Why does everything need to cater to the average consumer? The average consumer is a fucking idiot, especially when it comes to technology. They don’t need to sell to everyone, they just need to sell enough to keep their company running and their people paid.
With laptop making, that’s a lot though. Economies of scale are a huge factor there.
I feel this way about spicy things. Everything “hot” is just hot to the average schmuck from the Midwest. Anything spicier than that gets dumbed down to become that (like taco bell Diablo sauce) or becomes hard to find.
I really enjoyed when that Buldak 2x spicy chicken raman “challenge” became a thing, because that’s some great tasting raman and more in line with the normal amount of spicy I like to eat. Now I’m back to having to just order it online again.
As an average schmuck from the Midwest. I’m sorry our weak tastebuds are fucking up your options.
It’s not your fault. The taco bell one really tucked me off, though. The first summer it was out was a limited time thing. It was actually a bit spicy. A lot more spicy than anything else a fast food chain had.
But then when they brought it back permanently it wasn’t half as spicy as it was. Taco Bell has like 5 fucking bland ass sauces now, and three of them taste about the same. What’s the damned point? FU taco bell. You could have left me with at least one option besides all your ketchup with tobacco sauce mixed in. No wonder I’ve only been there like 4 times in the last year.
Yeah, I remember thinking the diablo one was pretty hot for my taste but now it’s the one I go with. I didn’t know they changed it, I thought I might have developed some tolerance lol. It’s gotten way too expensive for what it is anyway.
Yeah. They buy cheaper stuff, and charge more for it. I can’t stand the taste of their trash burrito shells they went to. Then, they charge twice as much for just a bean burrito and give you half the filling, even though it’s just super cheap refried beans.
In my part of the world 2x is weak, the challenges were doing 3x 😂
I’ve never seen 3x, but I’ve gotten the 4x before. It wasn’t much hotter than the 2x, really.
You can order the sauce separately too. I love that Buldak spicy carbonara stuff.
I totally have some! But man, it’s kind of pricey for what it is. Not saying I don’t spend more on most of the hot sauces I buy, but still.
It may be, but that doesn’t resemble what they said. Presumably that is a less clickbaity headline.
How many laptops are enterprise purchases as well? Those dont get fixed.
And I don’t see why that is a problem. If a company is doing good thing and sustaining itself, I don’t see why they will need to be a dell, hp, or lenovo. That feels like the toxicity of “endless growth” in the capitalist’s view of the world.
Not to mention in most of the place I go to, these are the most popular laptops only behind macbooks. In many situations, they are even more popular than macbooks.
I have never seen a Framework in the wild, however I applaud their approach, but even when taking repair costs in consideration, Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop and using the old laptop for some other purpose. I can’t imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive, but I hope they do, I wish other manufacturers would make repair a higher priority.
I would like to offer a slightly different perspective: I believe framework is uniquely positioned to survive the ram apocalypse.
In the sense that, framework user can keep purchasing and upgrading components without needing to worry about ram prices, and framework can profit from these component without needing to subsidize ram prices.
That being said, as a smaller company, they certainly don’t have the same amount of bargaining power on ram as most big players, and the launch of LPCAM2 is a bit risky, since that pervents people from purchasing new ram/board/laptops given the current ram prices.
Does a new generation mobo/chip combination generally still support the older generation of RAM?
Nope, not on intel core ultra 3 unfortunately (unless you have LPCAMM2 lying around, which is unlikely), that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.
that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.
That’s what I get for only reading 2/3 of your comment before responding.
My anecdotal experience - my Asus gaming laptop died about 6 months ago. with a lot of trouble shooting, I determined it was most likely the mobo. I decided to go with a framework, and was able to bring over my hard drive and ram, saving me like $400.
You also likely don’t need to reinstall/resetup everything, which is absolutely painful.
Getting the framework driver’s was painful. I needed to download them over wifi, but wifi wasn’t working because it needed the driver. okay, download on another computer and install via USB, nope. USB drivers aren’t working either. I ended up spotting my hard drive into my desktop, downloading the drivers that way, and then moving it back to the framework laptop to install.
I’ve literally never had a computer need drivers to make basic USB work in the past probably 20 years. I had a bleeding edge ai 350 framework right even when it came out. Linux was a little flaky with my sound but everything else worked. Same in Windows. Maybe I needed Wi-Fi drivers, don’t recall, but I know USB worked without any. I’m really curious how you needed USB drivers of all things genuinely. I mean you installed the OS presumably from a thumb drive so how would that not work in the same os after installing? Lol.
If you have a desktop with internet connection, maybe a USB stick would suffice?
There is also USB tethering from a phone that could work.
I am not defending framework. They should try to do better (maybe windows is the bottleneck? not sure). Just offering solutions to people who might encounter this problem later.
Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop
They’re absolutely not.
can’t imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive
Being that you can and have been able to buy them without RAM or storage, I’d say they’re better-positioned than anyone.
Umm, not sure if you have seen Framework’s prices.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850 (and you can’t get it until October). To buy an equivalent Dell? Around $1,000 and you can get it tomorrow. The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.
And no, they aren’t positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2. You don’t have that just lying around.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850
The entire point is that you don’t have to buy a whole new computer when you upgrade. You just get an updated motherboard and slap it into the existing chassis.
they aren’t positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2
That is 1 of 5 computers they sell.
Umm that intel processor is the weakest of the bunch. The i9 version you can’t even buy from Framework currently. I get the homerism for Framework, but I guarantee you that they will be out of business within 5 years.
I don’t think you get the point. To upgrade a Framework, even if you are able to move the ram and SSD over, you literally can get an equivalent laptop from another manufacturer with new RAM, SSD and the screen, battery and everything else, and still use the old laptop. With Framework, you move parts over and slowly upgrade. It’s not sustainable at the current costing for anyone except for people who are very into home repair.
Framework is moving all over their laptops to LPCAMM2 because the newer platforms require it for faster RAM, the alternative would be soldered on RAM which defeats the entire purpose of Framework, as you wouldn’t be able to ‘upgrade’ your laptop or repair it.
That is just plain not true. If you are a enthusiast and know where to look then you definitely can find better deal than framework, but getting a dell (or even better dell?) for half of the price is simple not true.
On Dell website https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-14-laptop/spd/xps-da14260-laptop, a core ultra 7 358H with 32GB Ram and 1TB SDD is 2749$ with no touch screen and a 2K display and windows Home.
On framework website https://frame.work/products/laptop13pro-intel-ultra-3/configuration/new, the same processor, ram, storage, with 2.8k touch screen, plus windows pro cost 2299$
Framework is cheaper than dell if you don’t try to find deals or buy older models.
If you buy older models, then framework don’t need to replace ram, I can upgrade my laptop to kitted out ryzen AI 9 for only 849$, https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0009 with my existing 64GB of ram. I don’t think you can get any laptop close to that quality with this price.
It’s very true. You recognize that Dell always runs discounts and the only people paying full price would be corporations or ignorant people such as yourself? Literally Dell is running a discount to bring the price down to $1,300. Wild how price inefficient Framework is, for something you can’t get until at least October, when every other manufacturer you can get now.
Exactly
They are expensive up front. I have one of the first 11th generation Intel ones. I bought a new CPU fan last year instead of getting a new laptop. One of my kids dropped it, and I’ll need a new screen for it here soon.
Instead of buying 3 laptops, I bought 1 and repaired it. Super worth it.
Yikes, XDA’s reporting has really gone downhill since being bought out.
I would gladly buy one, if i had disposable income.
How much? With what money?
Come now, these products that cost 3x what they should don’t get to claim it did not work out due to lack of demand. No one has pissing away money anymore and products made for some odd not rich but well off tech people is just not going to happen.
I still have my 17" Satellite l300. Still runs briskly. On its third battery.
speaking of Framework. did anything turn out of their “big tent” approach as they were saying it? was there any continuation of that thing?
for those who have no idea, there was some controversy around Framework when they were collaborating with omarchy and its founder of some specific beliefs
This is the actual reason I won’t buy one. I’m willing to pay extra for a product that goes against the current and offers repairability and modularity. But the way they handled that situation makes me not want to see them ever again. I’ll stick to used Thinkpads.
I bought one for myself, and a high spec one for my wife’s business. Mine is just a personal machine but I’ve been using it as a portable home server in my various moves. Very happy with both. They didn’t seem a crazy amount more than similar spec machines in Europe
I’M nobody!!!
