As a young person that vividly remembers what I and people around me were like at that age, I really don’t think that we should have been allowed to vote. Optimal age for maturity would probably be around 20.
Not gonna lie, I don’t think that I was mature enough at sixteen for my opinion to have mattered on a macro scale.
Im 60 this year and feel the same now. I don’t know shit, so not sure i should be asked to vote.
But do you think you cared more about the future than someone who is 70?
Is voting selfish reasons at 16 naturally better than someone doing the same at 80?
I agree, I probably didn’t know enough at the time to make the most informed choice but I was definitely more idealistic, and I think that would have been a good thing.
Also, will there her more policy aimed at improving the lives of 16+ knowing they can vote.
I think the positives out way any downside.
Honestly no, I was a twat at sixteen. But I acknowledge that I’m speaking for myself.
You’re speaking for yourself, me and more or less everyone I hung out with which back then was a decent sized social group. I was barely competent to vote at 18.
100% idiot at 16. No shame admitting it.
I agree, this guy was a twat!
I’m j/king. People change all the time, it’s okay to acknowledge that.
I appreciate your honesty. I would have to say I was still a twat when I started to vote, and was for a long time after.
“The government said it was a reform to bring in more fairness for 16- and 17-year-olds, many of whom already work and are able to serve in the military. It brings the whole of the UK voting age to 16. Scotland and Wales have already made the change for Holyrood and Senedd elections, as well as local council elections.”
Great logical reform.
Until they decide to troll vote.
You know that impulse control doesn’t fully develop till ones twenties
Like Brexit? Damn all those 16 and 17 voters.
Oh wait, they weren’t part of that.
Mm hmmm. So where did I say any of that? and your argument is poor. 16 and 17 year olds were not legally able to vote so you have no data to back up your outburst
You’ve missed their point.
No. They made no point. What they did was blame the poor showing in that vote on older people. That isn’t what I said at all.
Said nothing about brexit, nor does the reply to me address anything I posted.
So no. You and they have missed the point.
Would Reform undo it I wonder? This does smell a bit of gerrymandering as young people split leftwards
“I oppose democracy unless it aligns with me”
— this chudd
Lol, not at all. I’m worried Reform (who are looking possible to take the government next) would reverse this decision. A very regressive move imo. But not unlikely
Great. Let the red pill kids vote.
I’ll believe it when I see it
Controversial opinion: I don’t see a justification for ANY voting age.
For adults we (rightfully) don’t make voting dependent on mental or physical capacity, being dependent on other people, and there also is no upper age limit.
So i wouldn’t be opposed to allowing anyone elegible for voting to do so when he/she expresses the wish to do so.
Could age not be an imperfect but good enough proxy for maturity and capability?
Yes, but we are not filtering for maturity and capability in adults. So if this is the argument then imo it is flawed, since we’d filter for something just to stop filtering for it after a certain age.
If one wants to filter for these things then it should be applied across the board. However we are not doing so for good reasons (I can provide some if needed).
There needs to be some limit. Babies and toddlers don’t know shit, plus parents have an extreme amount of coercion over their children until they’re teenagers. Also allowing children to vote will result in more political propaganda targeted at children. They deserve to enjoy childhood without worrying about the clusterfuck. I think “teenager” is probably as low as you want to go for the foreseeable future.
it’s not necessarily a bad thing for parents to have more voting power than non-parents through this means. Parents would generally be voting with their children’s best interests in mind.
Babies and toddlers don’t know shit, plus parents have an extreme amount of coercion over their children until they’re teenagers.
Like I said we don’t make this a prequisite for adults. There are plenty of disabled or old people fully dependent on others.
Also allowing children to vote will result in more political propaganda targeted at children.
That is an interesting point definitely worth debating. Propaganda would definitely be an issue, but this is the case not just in children, but adults alike. On the other hand with children becoming a voting block it might shift the focus slightly on topics benefiting them.
They deserve to enjoy childhood without worrying about the clusterfuck.
True, although I think children pick up a lot regardless. And importantly obliviousness of issues doesn’t change how it affects them. Climate change and unfair pension systems for example will affect them regardless, this way they’d at least have a voice.
I think “teenager” is probably as low as you want to go for the foreseeable future.
I can for sure see how opinions can differ on the topic and I’d totally be ok with compromises and accepting some degree of hypocrisy. But nonetheless it’s imo worth looking at the issue from the extreme.
As far as compromises go I think another way to go about it would be to have staggered voting with lower limits in more local votes. I could see how it might be more acceptable there for some.
Edit: also regarding babies and toddlers i’d think that they would need to express a desire to vote in some form, which would probably make it so you don’t have literal 1 year olds voting (unless they are like an extreme genius, at which point they might aswell and it would only be a single vote of millions). Maybe one compromise would be to require some more active component below a certain age threshold, like having to vote in person for the first time or at least having to register somewhere (which if not done prior would happen automatically at a certain age).
Propaganda would definitely be an issue, but this is the case not just in children, but adults alike. On the other hand with children becoming a voting block it might shift the focus slightly on topics benefiting them.
you can’t ignore the fact that even more propaganda would directly target them, taking advantage of very effective data mining based profiling. they should be able to experience more of life before advertisers starts to dictate their agenda, otherwise they’ll easily think that advertisers are speaking the truth.
Climate change and unfair pension systems for example will affect them regardless, this way they’d at least have a voice.
they have a voice. It’s not like people can only vote if they are in their last decade. turning 18, just 2 years, anyone can vote, and I would say even 30 and 40 years olds are largely affected by these issues.
you can’t ignore the fact that even more propaganda would directly target them, taking advantage of very effective data mining based profiling. they should be able to experience more of life before advertisers starts to dictate their agenda, otherwise they’ll easily think that advertisers are speaking the truth.
Yes, this is indeed an argument that shouldn’t just be ignored. And honestly this should simply never be the case, regardless of age.
I’d break it up into two parts. Official election material and just general advertisements/media. The first one typically is already quite regulated and arguably for the benefit of all should already follow standards that are not harmful to children. The second one seems like the problematic one. However I’d argue that even children are already to some degree getting confronted with what’s going on in the world. Anecdotally i can say that even at elementary school age children seem to be (to varying degrees) at least rudimentally aware of many things. To give a recent example like when Israel bombed Iran.
We have things like cigarettes and alcohol where we impose age limits, but those are directly harmful things. Hard to argue that voting in a democracy is harmful. Sometimes there might be anti democratic parties (like the afd here in germany for example), but in those cases you’d think about banning those, not taking away the ability to vote. Maybe you or someone else could give me an example of something positive being banned based on age because the state/society can’t provide protection from something secondary.
I would also add that advertisement to a young voting base wouldn’t exclusively need to be a bad thing. Take free school lunches for example. If as a politician you run a campaign on that for example you are banking on gaining favor from a voter base that only indirectly is affected by it. The people directly benefiting from it can’t vote for you.
they have a voice. It’s not like people can only vote if they are in their last decade. turning 18, just 2 years, anyone can vote, and I would say even 30 and 40 years olds are largely affected by these issues.
They have a voice, but no vote, which is what matters for the politicians in charge. Also “just 2 years” falls flat since my argument is not about the lowering to 16, but abolishing it in general. So for the sake of argument for example an 8 year old, which would make it a full decade. In practice even longer, since elections aren’t every year and you aren’t guaranteed to have one in the year you turn 18.
And you are right that even 30 and 40 year olds are affected by these issues, but i don’t see how that would be an argument against it. If anything i’d see it as an argument that children should also have a say. We also don’t have an upper limit after which you aren’t allowed to vote anymore. And for obvious reasons it would e.g. be impossible to have a rule that says x years before you die you aren’t allowed to vote anymore, since you won’t suffer all the consequences.
It’s always the far right that’s trying to lower the age. I think that says enough.
I’ve never heard of this before. Where else is this the case?
The right are trying to disenfranchise voters. Lowering the voting age is s classic leftist move
That is beyond stupid. Hell our brains aren’t fully developed at 18 , at 16?
oh don’t tell me you believe in that debunked your-brain-is-fully-developed-at-25 pseudoscience.
Some people make it to their 70’s without a fully developed brain.
Some people become president of the world’s most heavily armed nation without one
Yep. To all of what you said.
Still. It’s a bad idea. I think we all know it if we really think about
What are your thoughts on people with degenerative brain diseases being able to vote?
Should you have to take a test once you hit 70 to confirm you are still aware enough to vote in an informed way? (Should you be able to work in politics after 70?)
I admit I’m taking it to the extreme to make a point but if you can work and pay tax at 16, I think being able to vote makes sense.
the age limit is not about closing people out entirely, but limit it while they are more gullible. sure there’s lots of fools beyond 18, but the concept is that hopefully most people as they ahe, become less so, and much of that process happens around age 18 and somewhat beyond.
now add that kids today are not only exposed to shit spreading on facebook but now tiktok too, and they don’t know when they are being deceived. source: I didn’t know with facebook when I was in that age.look, there were not too many elections yet on which I could have voted. but I think even 18 might be too early. I remember that I just missed an election by a few months, and today I’m ashamed of what would have been my choice. I almost voted for a party that looked ashamed of its corrupt past, just because they acknowledged it and promised it wouldn’t happen again.
this is not a step forward.
If your main points are around misinformation, propaganda, fake new, ai generated content or anything that convinces people of something that is false, I would say this is a huge, but separate issue that affects everyone, not just 16-17 year olds.
Younger people consume different types of media and paying influencers to pick political sides doesn’t seem to be as uncommon as I would like.
That being said, Cambridge analytica already showed us that the age groups that can vote are not immune to have their opinions manipulated via targeted misinformation.
They are just as fucked as we are, let them vote.
okay. but then just delete the age limit. lets have kindergarten aged kids vote. what could go wrong?
If we are taking things to extremes to make the point.
You plan would be to block anyone that may be gullible from voting.
The question is how? Forced iq tests or level of education achieved. Maybe some demographics are more susceptible? Age, race, gender? Maybe location. Are rural communities less likely to consume propaganda? Are they more likely?
It seems the original argument was that if at 16 you can join the army and fight in a war, should you get a voice on if we go to war?
I think yes.
Those are good questions
I do think that our voting public needs more education and we needed to have age appropriate, and yes , at times medical consitions may have to be looked at.
I feel that the last part I can speak to a bit( I am not a doctor or anything) as I grew up with a mother who was left with extreme tbi after an accident but could still function in society.
But she didn’t vote. She didn’t have any grasp of what was happening politically. She was never told not to, but I think somehow she knew.
Honestly there are ways to disseminate the voting information enough that those who can grasp the vote should.
I have no easy answers though. It’s not an easy question
Definitely agree there are no easy answers.
At least this seems like a much better place to have a discussion on it that some other places online.
Edit: I did just saw you first comment got down voted. I think you have a valid point, I don’t agree but I wouldn’t down vote you for having it and I don’t think you should have been.
Yeah, I’m not saying I have all the answers or that I’m not missing something, but the way it stands it’s a bad idea. It needs thought, a process developed and guardrails in place.
I will say this. As well. I have a 17 year old extremely intelligent son. He works. He ain’t ready to vote. He’ll be the first to say it as well.
Ironically that’s what makes him grounded enough to have a vote imo, with people out there being so susceptible to propaganda and proud of it too it’s worth having more stoic views on it
You laugh but I said the same thing to him. Told him I’d kick his butt if he didn’t vote next year. We need guys who actually inquire and argue with those in Authority. Even when that authority is his dad lol.
Hey sometimes I’m wrong and he’s right. It happens
