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It’s just a logical extension of what happens when government becomes the arbitrator of all.
The biggest issue is that so many people see it just as you do, left vs right, instead of liberty vs authoritarianism.
For decades, the libertarian movement, as seen by the left, has been largely associated with the right, simply because of their professed support of the free market, and dislike of gun control
But that same movement has been seen by the right as largely associated with the left, because of their views on things like the drug war, enforced morality, and anti-corporatism.
Has there been a large shift of alt-right into the libertarian movement over the past few years? Yes. Absolutely. And I despise it with a passion.
But there are still quite a lot of us truly anti-authoritarian libertarians out there who despise both left, and right leaning authoritarianism.
But when I bring up issues of authoritarianism, I get “BoTh SiDeS?!” bullshit responses. Because YES, as we can see, BOTH SIDES do their own fair share of this authoritarian bullshit.
They differ in methods, yes. But the bottom line is an encroachment on personal privacy. Plus, property rights are just a logical extension of personal privacy rights.
The right is typically for gun control. Only one country comes to my mind where they aren’t. Which one were you thinking about? Or is it more common than I thought?
(Or did you just happen to forget that 95 % of Earth’s population exists?)
EDIT: Oh, and also: It is important to keep in mind that it’s the same within the left. There are also left-wingers who prefer authoritarianism and ones who despise it. I do agree with your sentiment: The left-right division does not work very well in our current world. Need to take best parts of everything, but most importantly, make sure we don’t end up under totalitarian rule!
I said “professed” dislike. Yes, I know Reagan is responsible for one of the largest expansions of gun control ever seen in the US…
And yes, I know Marx himself was tremendously in favor of armed workers.
Doesn’t change political narrative being pushed by both major political parties in the US, where in the left supposedly wants guns banned, and the right wants everyone armed.
Yes, I know things aren’t that cut and dry, but the media narrative pushed by both parties definitely seems to say that it is.
Doesn’t change political narrative being pushed by both major political parties in the US, where in the left supposedly wants guns banned, and the right wants everyone armed.
I wasn’t being eurocentric. I was being Asia-Africa-Australia-South America-Europe-Canada-Mexico-Central America-Caribbea centric.
The only country where most of the right want to reduce gun safety is USA. We are talking in an international forum, so here international concepts count, not nation-specific. Typically in the world right-wingers are for safety and typically in the world the politics of the Democrat party count as right-wing.
When in a conversation not specific to USA it is not okay to speak as if everything was about USA. It is not okay to speak as if there was a left-wing party in US Congress or Senate and it is not okay to claim that the right wants more dangerous gun policies.
And here we’re talking about something that takes place most prominently in UK and secondly in a bunch of other countries, but absolutely not in USA. USA has nothing to do with this, so don’t be as insolent as you were.
(Also, for example Australia is not in Europe. Learn some geography.)
Despite what they think, we are human beings too over here. That’s my point.
I don’t care about the politics of nation vs nation.
I care about humanity’s liberty as a whole.
Nations are shit. Because the only ones in power are typically the ones who want to be. And there’s no one worse to hand power to, than one who craves it.
Despite what who think? I don’t think there are people who think people in USA are not human beings. (Or if they are, they are less than one percent of the world population… Of course within 8 billion people you will find a proponent for any opinion…)
But yeah, since you care about humanity’s liberty as a whole, you could maybe kindly stop undermining that goal by assuming that what is done by under 5% of the population on this planet is the standard that the remaining 95 % are following.
You’re right. I shouldn’t have responded in anger. My bad. I get frustrated when I feel like people are talking down to me simply because I’m a USian, and I let it get the better of me.
Well to be fair the left in the usa does have another reason to see the libertarian party as just another right wing party. They vote republican when it comes down to D vs R
I’ve never voted for a Republican OR Democrat that I didn’t know personally in my entire life. Why do I add that qualifier? Because I did know some older small town politicians, in both US parties, back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when my grandfather was still alive, and they were his friends.
No. Voting for the lesser of two evil is still voting for evil. I’ll write someone in before I vote for some party functionary that only cares about their own political power.
It’s just a logical extension of what happens when government becomes the arbitrator of all.
The biggest issue is that so many people see it just as you do, left vs right, instead of liberty vs authoritarianism.
For decades, the libertarian movement, as seen by the left, has been largely associated with the right, simply because of their professed support of the free market, and dislike of gun control
But that same movement has been seen by the right as largely associated with the left, because of their views on things like the drug war, enforced morality, and anti-corporatism.
Has there been a large shift of alt-right into the libertarian movement over the past few years? Yes. Absolutely. And I despise it with a passion.
But there are still quite a lot of us truly anti-authoritarian libertarians out there who despise both left, and right leaning authoritarianism.
But when I bring up issues of authoritarianism, I get “BoTh SiDeS?!” bullshit responses. Because YES, as we can see, BOTH SIDES do their own fair share of this authoritarian bullshit.
They differ in methods, yes. But the bottom line is an encroachment on personal privacy. Plus, property rights are just a logical extension of personal privacy rights.
The right is typically for gun control. Only one country comes to my mind where they aren’t. Which one were you thinking about? Or is it more common than I thought?
(Or did you just happen to forget that 95 % of Earth’s population exists?)
EDIT: Oh, and also: It is important to keep in mind that it’s the same within the left. There are also left-wingers who prefer authoritarianism and ones who despise it. I do agree with your sentiment: The left-right division does not work very well in our current world. Need to take best parts of everything, but most importantly, make sure we don’t end up under totalitarian rule!
I said “professed” dislike. Yes, I know Reagan is responsible for one of the largest expansions of gun control ever seen in the US…
And yes, I know Marx himself was tremendously in favor of armed workers.
Doesn’t change political narrative being pushed by both major political parties in the US, where in the left supposedly wants guns banned, and the right wants everyone armed.
Yes, I know things aren’t that cut and dry, but the media narrative pushed by both parties definitely seems to say that it is.
How is US relevant in this discussion?
Because the US has humans inside it, despite what all the Eurocentric trash think.I let my anger control me, shouldn’t have said this.
I wasn’t being eurocentric. I was being Asia-Africa-Australia-South America-Europe-Canada-Mexico-Central America-Caribbea centric. The only country where most of the right want to reduce gun safety is USA. We are talking in an international forum, so here international concepts count, not nation-specific. Typically in the world right-wingers are for safety and typically in the world the politics of the Democrat party count as right-wing.
When in a conversation not specific to USA it is not okay to speak as if everything was about USA. It is not okay to speak as if there was a left-wing party in US Congress or Senate and it is not okay to claim that the right wants more dangerous gun policies.
And here we’re talking about something that takes place most prominently in UK and secondly in a bunch of other countries, but absolutely not in USA. USA has nothing to do with this, so don’t be as insolent as you were.
(Also, for example Australia is not in Europe. Learn some geography.)
Despite what they think, we are human beings too over here. That’s my point.
I don’t care about the politics of nation vs nation.
I care about humanity’s liberty as a whole.
Nations are shit. Because the only ones in power are typically the ones who want to be. And there’s no one worse to hand power to, than one who craves it.
Despite what who think? I don’t think there are people who think people in USA are not human beings. (Or if they are, they are less than one percent of the world population… Of course within 8 billion people you will find a proponent for any opinion…)
But yeah, since you care about humanity’s liberty as a whole, you could maybe kindly stop undermining that goal by assuming that what is done by under 5% of the population on this planet is the standard that the remaining 95 % are following.
You’re right. I shouldn’t have responded in anger. My bad. I get frustrated when I feel like people are talking down to me simply because I’m a USian, and I let it get the better of me.
Well to be fair the left in the usa does have another reason to see the libertarian party as just another right wing party. They vote republican when it comes down to D vs R
I’ve never voted for a Republican OR Democrat that I didn’t know personally in my entire life. Why do I add that qualifier? Because I did know some older small town politicians, in both US parties, back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when my grandfather was still alive, and they were his friends.
So you just don’t vote for most offices then?
No. Voting for the lesser of two evil is still voting for evil. I’ll write someone in before I vote for some party functionary that only cares about their own political power.