Cash is under attack worldwide. Whenever this topic comes up, I want to express my sadness that crypto didn’t seem to fill this hole, even though it’s more than capable.
Except it’s not:
Most people prefer not to use cash and banks don’t like cash but governments know that cash offers resilience and try to protect access to it. Cash is not under attack, it’s simply going extinct because it’s inconvenient.
Cash is under attack even in public transit, you are required to provide a working phone number and government name to put money on a city bus card. Here at least. It’s being made inconvenient on purpose.
This argument doesn’t make sense. City bus card is no cash. Phone number requirements don’t apply to cash. You’re saying that cash is under attacked because they are making cashless options inconvenient? This just sounds like shitty public transport, nothing to do with cash.
Before city bus cards, there was cash. Then cashless was made mandatory, but possible to prepay with cash anonymously. Then the anonymity was forbidden.
Yes, now it makes sense.
And yes, cash is disappearing for various reasons. You can’t for example charge an EV with cash. One ICE cars are gone you won’t be able to travel and pay with cash. But cash is disappearing in part because people don’t want to use it. The less people use cash the less sense does it make to add infrastructure for it. For example for a public car charger to accept cash you wold have to place cash and coin slots on them, they would have to hold cash which is a security risk and someone would have to travel to collect it which would increase the costs. It’s not all some sinister plot to track people. Governments actually understand that cash offers resilience, especially in EU where most of the cashless infrastructure still depends on US companies.
There doesn’t have to be a sinister plot for the result - mandatory, ubiquitous tracking and bank commisions in the middle - to be real and problematic, is what I’m saying. The governments have all the resources they need to make it possible to pay with cash anywhere you go, but the trajectory they choose is the opposite. Regarding the costs, I think IT and integration work required for cashless payments are an order of magnitude costlier than cash and coin slots, because of the telecom equipment, data centers and IT professionals working on it.
@nucleative @CAVOK
Except that crypto is not a currency but a commodity, like modern art or manga figurines. 😉
Another step towards the digital EU, where the banks can track all of your movements and the government can deny any purchases they don’t like.
Get fucked.
This is basically the Scandinavian model. Have never had a transfer blocked in the last decade. Good thing we don’t have US government here in Europe, so we don’t need to adopt the US scepticism of government.
Are you serious? Lime 50% of EU states are about to elect facist governments. Italy already has.
They should’ve added another 0. Lots of people who aren’t unconscionably rich buy cars for more than that.
I get that if you have the money, it’s stupid to finance a car purchase, but you can do that without slapping a bundle of banknotes onto their desk.
My landlord wanted me to pay the deposit in cash, and I said no, and did a bank transfer instead. If I get mugged on the way to his office, or discover after the transaction that he’s a scammer, that money is gone. And I don’t see any advantage to me to pay with physical money.
Of course, if I had gotten the money in cash because I’d been working off the books, or if I’d gotten it through some criminal activity, I’d have been very happy to have the opportunity to use the cash.
A friend of mine had a husband who did carpentry and got paid cash under the table, and so they bought all their groceries in cash, so that they didn’t have to declare the income. Not the way I’d like to live.
All my money (when I had any) was legit. I prefer to pay cash for groceries and everything else on the principle that it is better not to have a centralized payment processor raking off a percentage of the transaction and recording it in their giant database every time anyone buys anything. The advantages seem pretty obvious.
My car is worth a fair bit more than 10k, and just the idea of buying it with physical cash makes me nervous. I’ll take a traceable transaction for this that doesn’t make me a target for mugging in the meantime, thank you very much.
How would the muggers even know you have the money?
The person you are buying or selling to is in on it of course.
Interestingly (or not), we also mostly (or is it totally?) got rid of 500 € bills because they made moving around large amounts of cash too easy.
Hold up, does this effect the ability to purchase outright cars and homes? The article doesn’t go into detail about what is considered “goods and services”.
It doesn’t. You can still buy a house, or a car, just not with cash.
Cash here refers to physical currency. It’s not mandating that you take a loan for large purchases if that’s what you’re thinking.
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Yes, the freedom to launder money and avoid taxes.
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I never met anyone who paid €10,000 in cash. Like, how is someone able to carry all that much? In a suitcase? You’d also be a walking target for robbery if someone knows you are carrying a suitcase with €10,000 in cash. That amount is life changing for most ordinary Europeans.
I have heard of people doing deals in cash and yeah that goes with a suitcase and armed proteciton most of the time lol.
This comment is poorly informed. Private car sales use cash a lot. 10,000 isnt suitcase worthy. Any volume of cash of a target. €10,000 being life changing is suspect, in what regard is it specific to europeans.
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500,- € notes or 60 200,- € notes, you surely don’t need a suitcase, an envelope is absolutely enough.
Aren’t those notes banned? I have never seen €500 and 200 notes in years. Unless…you are saying something…
Quite a few years ago I was in ‘job learning’ course from school in a local bank. They needed to move money to another bank across the street and there was some system update or interruption or whatever going on so it had to be done in cash. I don’t remember the exact sum, but it was something like 300k€. The lady who was assigned as my director took money (and counted it, made necessary paperwork and all the jazz) from the vault and put it in her purse in a bag meant for money transfers. It was roughly a book sized stack of bills which we then walked the short distance and the receiving bank made necessary paperwork on their side. I was there only because their insurance required there’s two persons doing the delivery.
Also “a few” years ago I bought a car and the older gentleman who was selling insisted that I pay in cash. 7000€ can easily fit in your wallet.
I think you’re missing the point.Just because you haven’t heard of anyone doing it doesn’t mean that this isn’t still a right that you currently have being taken away.
We’re in c/Europe…when was the last time someone has carried wads of €50 notes that total to €10k? The implication of my comment being A) doing just that is impractical, and B) people commented that one could carry €100 and €500 notes. Either they don’t live in Europe and not realise €100 and €500 notes are banned because of the same money laundering issue. Or, C)they are criminals and somehow traded with those already banned notes! 🤣🤣
10,000 is just not what it used to be. For example if you are renting a house where you need a damage deposit and to pre-pay the first and last month’s rent. That easily blows past 10,000 these days for a completely normal transaction. Same for most used vehicles.
20 €500 notes
50 €200 notes
100 €100 notes
No need to break out the luggage.
I had the idea years ago that we should ban notes outright, it would have to be coins and the highest denomination would be €50. You can still buy stuff that you’d need cash for, but it would make the black/shadow-economy more cumbersome. Or you’d get really strong criminals. 🙃
Man what do you have against people using cash, Banks are untrustworthy as fuck. Who cares if “illegal transactions” occur, taxation is fucking theft anyways.
Aren’t those notes banned precisely for the reason of money laundering? It has been twenty years since I’ve seen €500 note.
Payment for surgery to doctors who arent allowed to be paid, in a failed universal healthcare system. Or doctors who want to tax evade. This is a necessity if you want your poorer country to keep any decent doctors. Because why would any doctor work for 1500€ when they can easily migrate and find a job for 10k+.
Because why would any doctor work for 1500€ when they can easily migrate and find a job for 10k+.
Because most people like living at home with their family and friends. Money isn’t everything.
Sure but there is a point where moving elsewhere becomes almost mandatory. For many highly skilled people in poorer EU countries, migrating to the Imperial core is a no brainer.
Welcome to Scandinavia, where I have seen cash in the last five years, but only from dealers.
I don’t know how I feel about this. Generally though I think I’m against it even if rich people do abuse whatever. What am I saying I’m definitely against this. They chose to use money, they chose to allow things to cost a lot more than 10,000 pounds but we can’t pay with more than 10,000 pounds? Why? So we go through their Banks and bullshit. It’s about control I presume.
Under the new rules, businesses and professionals selling goods or services will no longer be allowed to accept or make cash payments of €10,000 or more.
This doesn’t apply to private transactions, by the way.
Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single example of a legitimate legal business that would be done using cash in that amount.
So while there’s definitely a danger of the rules being tightened over time, this specific change here doesn’t raise my concern too much.
What bothers me more is the utter lack of any effective measure against the true problem in tax fraud – those who do it at a truly large scale still get away without any punishment or control, and in fact sit at the table when the tax laws are written.good to know cash bribes are still accepted
Nobody wants to see oligarchs getting away with cheating tax laws by handing over briefcases of cash, but if this new law does not affect private transactions that wouldn’t even affect this.
I wonder what supposed ill this is supposed to cure do we know of any examples of businesses that have cheated taxes or whatever else by paying in cash?
I have known of more than one person that has paid for a house in cash and it was a smart move for them, by the time you get done with the mortgage you might end up paying 4 times more.
what supposed ill this is supposed to cure do we know of any examples of businesses that have cheated taxes or whatever else by paying in cash?
Come on. It happens everywhere, particulary in sales of services.
Restaurants not making receipts for a dinner avoid the value added sales tax and company tax. Nobody will notice the food missing.
The cleaner who takes cash doesn’t pay income tax and can underbid the professionals. Nobody will notice that the cleaning has been done.
These might be small amount transactions, but once the pizza restaurant has 100 orders of €100 they have €10k.
Now how are they going to deposit or spend that without questions? They can of course use the cash to pay the cleaner a few times, but the stack of cash is going to increase. So they hire a carpenter to redo the floor. This costs more than €10k, and they pay him in cash. But then what’s the carpenter going to do with the money if he can’t spend it on a new car? He sure isn’t going to eat pizza for €10k monthly. Maybe he can buy drugs illegally, but then the pusher has the problem with the stacks of cash.
By making larger cash amounts illegal it will put a limit on how much cash somebody even wants to accept as payment, even if they’re okay with doing tax evasion and other crimes.
The small stuff transactions will still happen, but the amounts are going to be kept beneath the threshold of what people can actually use legally.
This will make it a lot more difficult for the pusher to launder the money. The money laundering criminals can no longer make a fake receipt for a €100k grand piano. Now they have to make 10 receipts for €10k upright pianos and at some point somebody is going to question where all those pianos are.
Did they actually hand over a bag full of cash?
Cause the other alternative isn’t a mortgage, it’s a bank transfer.Briefcase(s.) Of 100 dollar bills.
But I’m with you, I would have went with the canvas bag with the big money symbol on it but I’m a traditionalist.
100 bills doesn’t need a briefcase. You can carry it in your pocket.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars in $100 bills, I’ve Been Told is actually very bulky.
Now I do not know about that because I’ve never had that kind of money not even fucking close. Sadly.
But it has been Illustrated on some TVs and movies like Burn Notice. Not that I am advocating for that show I’m just saying they made that point on there it’s bulky when you get into large numbers.
You’ve been told correctly, or at least correctly enough that it won’t fit in a pocket. The attached pic is a bundle of 1,000 notes correctly packaged (assuming Canadian, since you said dollars and are on a .ca instance, but it’s similar for most currencies). One of those bundles in 100 dollar notes is, of course, $100,000, so presumably it’s some number between one and ten of those bundles
car sales in germany traditionally have all or at least a large part of the sum paid in cash if not financed. at least a few years ago that was the case, no idea about now.
Finally, a EU law designed to fight against Germany’s fossil fuel addiction. Because I guarantee we will buy no new cars before we embrace cashless transactions.
It’s to bolster the luxury art industry since expensive paintings will now be used as currency
Does this apply to, say, purchasing a house?
The way I read it, it doesn’t. That’s still a private transaction.
And who buys a house and hands over a suitcase full of cash?Depends on where you buy a house. There are many rural houses and small apartments in tower blocks. And why a suitcase? You probably have a few dozen low-value banknotes lying around at home, stack them together and see they don’t take up much space (high-value banknotes aren’t thicker).
Whilst I’m all for cash usage, who is paying for a house with cash?
Mostly people who are ‘investing’ in houses. For instance it is legal to use profits from the sale of property to buy more property and not pay taxes on that income as long as it’s done within the same calendar year in most US states.
Why would you do it with cash though? It’s pretty uncomfortable to walk around with a luggage filled with 500,000€
AFAIK wire transfers are still considered cash transactions.
That’s not what this law is about. This is about banning the use of banknotes for large transactions.
People who have lived through numerous economic crashes and bank closings. In Eastern Europe, cash in EUR and USD has good reputation, despite efforts by governments to bully people out of paying with cash altogether.
Illegal in Germany already.
It’s not about credit vs buying outright, it’s about banning the use of actual banknotes for large transactions. That’s a popular way to launder money and hide income for tax evasion.
10,000 pounds
The UK is not part of the EU.
Well sure, typo whatever kind of foreign currency. Euros dollars pounds they’re all about the same.
If by “about the same” you mean it’s only a limit of £8,600….
Seems pretty close to me. If you said said $10,000 or $8,000 I wouldn’t blink an eye.
Cool, can l have that $2K difference from you if it doesn’t mean anything?
No.
Wero & a true digital € would mitigate this, tho not sure if the same restriction would apply to offline digital € payments.
But yeah, anyway, basic backing accounts & payment systems are core infrastructure, as such imho shouldn’t be (only) privatised, ECB should provide the service.
Inflation will do the rest.
how is this supposed to be enforced?
It’s a tack on charge, it’s not supposed to be enforced
Easy, you publish a serious-worded document. And, done!
They will not let businesses invoice large cash amounts.
I’ve never paid for anything that expensive in cash. To those opposing the idea: Have you? Did it need to be cash?
Bought my first car using cash, this was the early 2000s - and was (at the time) the most available way for a teenager to transfer funds to another person.
I will say, my heartbeat walking out of the bank and to my mum waiting in her car would have set a world record high.
When i was like 18, my coworker who was maybe 23 told me that he’s gonna buy a car, and if i would go to the bank with him, because he felt weird walking around with 20k in cash. I nodded, so we went to the bank. Like a bank robber, he nervously talked to the bank teller mumbling: i need 20 thousand chfr. She was like: sorry what? And he looked around and mumbled again 20 thousand. And he needs big bills. As big as possible. She probably thought he was disabled or something and started to smile and said: i’ll get you the biggest bills i can find, and came back with a 20 dollar bill. He snatched it and walked out in embarrassment. I had to laugh so goddamn hard.
Another step towards eliminating anonymous payments and removing citizens’ ability to exist without being constantly tracked by the state.
As if rich scum haven’t been paying each other with “gifts” that were awfully money-shaped already. This fixes nothing.
Sure it does. It just doesn’t fix everything.
This has been the law in the US for a long time already. Not exactly illegal, but any cash transaction $10k+ legally requires federal documentation. This gets at what people misunderstand about crime and money laundering. Money laundering=paying taxes. Once you are making real money “under the table”, you have to find ways to pay taxes, if you want to be able to buy cars/houses/etc
our money
