There were many lingua francas of which French was supposedly the first global lingua franca. That changed and it became English (from what I understand). We will probably see another language become the lingua franca, so my question is: should it be English? Are there better candidates out there? Why / why not?
I think we are at a point now where almost everybody in Europe is able to speak at least some English. So cultural exchange has never been easier. Why make it more difficult again by adding another language people have to learn first?
As a Brit (but European at heart and strong “Remain” voter), I am quick to remind fellow Brits that English is a language heavily derived from our European ancestors: French, Latin, Germanic (Proto-Germanic, “Old English”, Old Norse, Romance, etc), Greek, Dutch, Spanish, and more.
I know the United Kingdom has been a royal asshat throughout the centuries but the mark of Europe is intense and undeniable; without Europe, there is no such thing as the English language
(except perhaps a number of proper nouns that are rooted in the Celtic people and their ancestors)[Edit: see crappywittyname’s comment below].I hope our European siblings can find solace in the fact that “English” is a distinctly European language that is full of words from all of our tongues.
The Celtic languages are closely related to European languages such as Breton, the ancestor languages having been developed and spoken widely in Europe pre-Roman conquest.
I’m only being picky because it adds even more support to your (already very fine) argument. You don’t even need that caveat.
English is a global lingua franca, not just european. And it’s not just because of the american and british influence, but because it’s a relatively easy language.
Also the translator programs are better and better, this is actually a good and fitting usecase of current LLMs. I think we are not far away from the babel fish.
but because it’s a relatively easy language
I literally cried learning English as a kid lol
Now try to learn Portuguese, or German, or Russian. English has wonky phonetics, but has a relatively simple grammar. As a bonus it’s not properly standardized, so whatever you come up with is going to be correct in at least one of the existing dialects.
Plus English has influences from everywhere. In my oral abitur exam, I got stuck once or twice and made up words by anglicizing the pronounciantion of french words gaining extra points and impressed faces.
That works for almost all European languages. In one of his books Richard Feynman tells a story about when he went to Brazil and didn’t how to say “so” in Portuguese so he used “Consequentemente” by adapting Consequently and everyone was impressed with his fluency.
The grammar is fairly simple, but spelling is a total train wreck and an unparalleled nightmare of inconsistencies and convoluted rules. As long as you don’t have to read or write anything, there’s not much to cry about.
Me too, but later I learned a bit of german and latin. The thing is you can fake english easily, like “why use lot word when few do trick” is a totally understandable sentence. Word order is not as stict as in german, no cases, no grammatical genders, verb tenses are mostly optional. Pronunciation is messed up though.
it’s a relatively easy language
I don’t know about that part. The orthography at least is wild.
Every ‘real’ languare has wild parts. there are constructed languares that don’t but if they became common wild parts will likely be added over time.
Yep. I always liked the idea of a conlang, but there’s nothing stopping language change with them.
It’s a lingua franca, and I don’t even think it’s about being easy to learn… avalanche effects are completely sufficient to explain its status. Many people already speak English, so more people learn English to speak with them, now even more people speak English, and so on, and so forth… the development of any lingua franca only depends on the ability to talk to as many people as possible. It’s absolutely a bonus if it’s easy and quickens the process, but at some point the pure amount of speakers outside ones own country becomes the overwhelming factor.
a relatively easy language.
Counterpoint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ69ny57pR0I HATE the idea that we would have some Kind of built into us translators. Languages are a crucial part of human development and, therefore, they should be learned in school the old way. (Ofc school must also evolve)
It’s not possible to please everybody so I vote for Basque and pleasing nobody.
Came here to say that. I intended to propose an immensely complex language that almost nobody understands and that is unrelated to any other family of languages. My choice was Hungarian or Finnish but Euskadi (aka “Basque”) clearly beats it. I had the privilege to learn some words from Basque coworker years ago when I was living in Spain for a while and I swear it is so utterly alien to anything I’ve heard, that it must be of extraterrestrial origin.
FYI Euskadi is a region of Spain that doesn’t include all Basque-speaking territories. The language is Euskera.
Also, there is a Basque lemmy instance! lemmy.eus
@mikelgs@lemmy.eus @Allartean@lemmy.eus @Txopi@lemmy.eus are there good resources online for learning Basque?
Albanian would also fit your criteria as it’s also completely different from everything else and fucking strange at the same time.
Yes, but when I asked an actual Albanian (another co-worker on a slightly adventurous job abroad) about the Albanian language and relations to other European languages in a friendly small talk he got rather angry and weirdly nationalistic. So I decided it might be healthier not to ask silly questions to anyone Albanian (very recommendable for most Balkan things!) and considered the Alban language as probably too dangerous to bother with. Retrospectively, I think he just didn’t want to admit he had no idea. 😅
Yeah, asking those questions to any balkanese is dangerous. I had the luck to spend some weeks with an albanese family while traveling and while being weird they were also the most friendly and welcoming people I ever met (after every Canadian). I learned some albanian while being there, but the language doesn’t share anything with the other languages around there. And i was explicitly forbidden to learn any curse words, because that could be apparently really dangerous if the wrong people heard it. But if you ever get the chance to visit Albania, i can’t recommend it enough.
Basque might be the most neutral language of them all, right? Does it have a connection with any other European language?
Nope. Basque is considered a language isolate, not related to any other language.
Furthermore it’s the only European language there is. Every other language spoken in Europe descends from the Eurasian steppe. Well, most likely with a pinch of Kaukasian. It’s several millennia overdue that we honour the Euskari!
Basque it is!
Nope, it’s an isolate.
A lingua franca isn’t controllable. French was the lingua franca as it had been the dominant language of trade. Then the British Empire and later USA emerged and dominated global trade, and it became the lingua franca through shear necessity.
In the tech age, English has also become the lingua franca which is likely to cement it’s position into the future. In Europe, it’s been a convenient second language for many as it allowed Europeans to compete in global trade and also talk to each other with 1 common language, also avoiding nationalist concerns around language. English has also been less controversial as a second language than everyone learning French or German for example given the history of previous european wars.
A language isn’t owned by any country, so it doesn’t matter that the US is going crazy or that the UK left the EU. English is likely to stay the lingua franca in the west and in Europe as so many people already speak it, it’s already well established in schools and culture and in all honesty there isn’t an obvious alternative.
In terms of economics, China is powerful but Chinese is spoken largely by one country, and is hard for Europeans to learn due to how fundamentally different it is. India is emerging as an economy, with English it’s own lingua franca in a continent divided by numerous languages. Urdu is being pushed by the hindu nationalist government but the global reality is that speaking english is a strength for Indian citizens in trade and global work place, so it’s unlikely people will stop learning and speaking English in India in the foreseeable future.
The only other viable alternative in global terms currently for Europe would be Spanish due to the shear number of native speakers. But the problem remains that most Europeans don’t speak Spanish and while there is a large number of spanish speakers, they are heavily concentrated in the Americas. Meanwhile English is already spoken widely in Europe, North America outside of Mexico, India, and many other former British Colonies including widely in Africa, Oceania and across Asia.
It’s certainly possible things may change, but at the moment it seems unlikely. We’re not seeing a huge trend of people moving away from English. One possibility though is that translation apps become near instantaneous and people move away from learning any 2nd language. However I personally think that is unlikely as a translation app can never be perfectly instantaneous due to the nature of grammer - you need the whole of a sentence to translate into another language with a totally different sentence structure, especially for longer and more complex sentences.
So I think it’s unlikely English will be displaced as the lingua franca. It is also unneeded - it benefits Europe that a European language is the lingua franca (regardless of the UK exiting the EU etc), and it also benefits Europe as so many Europeans speak English - so the best thing for Europe is to help spread English, and offer a different influence and culture from the US with other English speakers particuarly in emerging economies. English can be Europe’s trojan horse for sharing it’s culture and values.
Through authority over schools the Lingua Franca is controllable.
deleted by creator
The thread is “Should English stay the lingua franca of Europe?”.
Whoops, deleted :)
Of course that is a limitation.
While we’re at it we could also mention that like with a lot of things you can control, this is also a thing you don’t have absolute control over. But with majority consensus you can teach whatever language and really focus a lot of hours on it, and it’s significantly more likely to be a successful widely spoken language that serves as the lingua franca.
A common language serves common communication. As a happenstance of history that turned out to be English. Changing it would be enormously costly and hinder cooperation. Aside from that, learning English is useful as it’s more or less commonly understood in almost every country in the world.
It’s not a happenstance, the British colonized half the planet and refused to conduct government business in anything other than English. Then the US decided to play world police and economic hegemon. Europe followed as a matter of financial necessity due to globalization.
But it could’ve easily been French (or some other language) that ended up in the same position.
Thank god it’s not French
If history had taken a different turn here or there. It could have easily been French or German or Dutch. In “our timeline” it happened to be the British Empire.
No, most people are pragmatic in this case and eastern countries changed from Russian ~30 years ago so another change isn’t coming any time soon.
As my parents saw the change from “it is really appreciated that you can speak English” to “it is expected that you can use it”. I can tell that it is so engrained in our multinational exchange that it won’t be even desirable.
English is mostly used in commercial now, changing it would be costly and you would need the commitment of many others people to accept a new change in how to approach the world or just Europe, it’s a tipe of commitment I doubt people would be willingly to accept.
The Lingua Franca didn’t change because someone decided to change it, it slowly happened. You could argue it would be nice for EU if the (local) Lingua Franca would be the language of a large member state, but I don’t see it happening by force. Probably better to just leave it to be English, even if the Irish are the only native speakers in the EU.
Ireland has English and Irish.
Irish? Isn’t it called Gaelic?
Gaelic is the language family and includes Scottish, Welsh, and another language I believe (Brittain from Brittainy?). Kind of like how Spanish and French are romance languages or English and German are Germanic languages.
This. It’s the same with forcing „wokeness“ on people. To safely implement change, the transition needs to be slow and steady.
Question is, what should be the criteria for deciding which other language?
If it is for the sake of current global usability, English remains top.
If it is for geostrategic considerations, Spanish, French and Arabic would be the languages to cover South and Central America, large parts of Africa and West Asia.
If it is for population dominance inside the EU, it would be German, which probably will ruffle some feathers. If it is for population dominance in Europe, it should be Russian, which will ruffle a lot of feathers.
Logical thinking I would think English should stay. It is by far the most known foreign language in Europe.
We will probably see another language become the lingua franca
That’s gonna take a while. Chinese is an unlikely candidate due to how difficult it is to learn to speak and especially read and write, despite the rising international influence of the Chinese state. And I rather doubt that Europe’s Germanic-speaking countries will stop using English as a lingua franca anytime soon, it’s just too easy to learn for them compared to any other possible candidate.
Let’s hope it’s not going to be Russian anytime soon.
Something like Esperanto would be a nice alternative for the EU, though. Maybe there’s other artificial languages that are even better? I’m not well-versed in this topic.
That’s gonna take a while
French was replaced within 60-80 years. Such change isn’t fast, unless forced. However, I don’t know how it could be forced. We aren’t in a feudalistic system anymore and EU interests are heavily influenced by an English-speaking upper class.
And I rather doubt that Europe’s Germanic-speaking countries will stop using English as a lingua franca anytime soon, it’s just too easy to learn for them compared to any other possible candidate.
Try this.
Let’s hope it’s not going to be Russian anytime soon.
One can only hope, not only because of the implications, but also because the language is very complicated IMO. Their case system is horrific.
Their case system is horrific.
More so than German?
Depends. They have six cases, which is standard for a lot of indogermanic languages, and their declension is mostly consistent. I never learned German as L2, but I imagine the fact that in German cases are not clearly marked on the noun but by the combination of article and noun and that we use two different but very similar marking systems depending on context as utter nightmarish for L2 learners.
Esperanto is a nice variant: it is much more adequate that any of those chaotically evolved “natural” languages plus nobody would have an unfair advantage just because of being lucky to be born in the English speaking country.
I like the idea. My only issue with esperanto are its heavy influence by romance languages
A substantial majority of its vocabulary (approximately 80%) derives from Romance languages, but it also contains elements derived from Germanic, Greek, and Slavic languages
That gives Spain, France, Italy, Portugal, Romania, and probably a few other countries quite a leg up. But, with influence from other languages, it would probably diversify its vocabulary (at least I hope so).
Almost all languages have a very big number of words derived from Latin or French. For example Polish, which is a slavic language, has so many of Latin or French rooted words.
Esperanto apart, I think that German should be the language od Europe, because is it simply the biggest language of the EU. It is also precise. Ofc it could get simplified, because for many der/die/das is too complicated or it is too much of a hustle to remember. German could get more logical with them and then it should be no problem for everyone.
We could also think about regianal lingua-francas. For example, it could be this way that in the region of romance languages, everyone would speak French, in the region of germanic - German and in the region of slavic - Polish. Simply the biggest languages in a given region.
The funniest one but also kind of interesting would be Latin. #useLatin
Latino sine flexione was an interesting proposition.
This is not such a big advantage because of the way words are constructed, by gluing words together. So there are fewer words to learn to have the same vocabulary.
let’s all switch to Sumerian.
We would be the badass of the world.
Isn’t the new official EU language irish English? I speak english with heavy german accent, can this be the ligua franca?
Sunk uu for trawelling wiss Deutsche Bahn AG
I’m too lazy to learn another language. Pick from English and Polish, alright?
It made us Brits lazy. There’s little reason for people to learn other languages due to English being so popular as a second language.
Don’t get me wrong, there are people. But I don’t know many people that can speak other languages. I am actually envious of others that do.
It simply amazes me when someone can speak multiple languages.
I’m now over 10 years out of school where i learned english and started to learn another language. Now with an adult brain it is quite facinating to self observe how the brain is slowly rewired to adopt to the new language and how the longer you stay on track the faster the learning becomes.
