… and I’m grateful for that but maybe we can finally decouple from OEM for OSes? Maybe could JUST buy a computer and not be forced an OS on it?
Sure I admit it feels nice to unwrap a new device, turn it on, set up few options and use it.
Yet, the alternative it to turn it on, plug a USB drive on it, turn it on, set up few options, wait for 15min tops for installation to proceed and use it.
It’s actually a ~15min difference but it could bring so many good practices.
I genuinely feel like there’s an appriciable percentage of the population that don’t even know that other operating systems exist. For whom Windows is “the computer” and for whom even Apple being a separate operating system is a difficult concept to grasp. If that’s truely the state technical literacy is in with a sizable slice of the population, then it’s quite the hurtle even explaining the basics of what Linux is. Let alone using it.
Learn about a tool that is basically in the middle of some of the most crucial interactions in their lives? From receiving an email to vote, to booking an appointment to get a passport, to working, to dating, to browsing an encyclopedia, to entertainment broadly, to creating music, to …?
I’ll stop there but yes, even though learning is scary I think if the safety net is clear enough (namely you just can’t mess up so badly your brand new computer won’t work) then it’s worth investing in.
You don’t need to convince me. I’m all for people having a basic understanding of the tools they use on a daily basis.
But my observation is that people seem predominantly opposed to the idea.
No. But everyone should have a basic understanding how electricity works, so they’re not surprised that they better switch it off when working on the wiring and can at least make a guess of how it’ll behave once powered.
They don’t need to get into the dynamics of capacitors, diodes, transistors or other electronic components, but having heard of them certainly wouldn’t hurt.
In my experience people who know a little about computers are more dangerous than the ones who know nothing.
I’ve had people come into the repair shop who’ve uninstalled programs they don’t recognise and then it turns out that the programs they don’t recognise was the graphics driver. A complete novice would just have not gone into the program list to begin with.
Do schools even teach basic computing anymore, when I was at school we got taught how to program and I feel like that’s not done anymore.
I was taught basic programming in school - by people who clearly had no clue. (it was clear to 11 year old me, and in hindsight I was far to kind in my evaluation of their knowledge) I was also taught on the then very modern apply IIgs - I wouldn’t be surprised if you have never heard of that, but all you need to know is nothing I was taught is relevant anyway - if you were taught on windows 7 a lot of what you learned has changed anyway.
Point is we need to teach people to teach themselves because things change.
You can buy computers without an operating system installed on it but most consumers barely understand what a computer is and would think that a computer without an operating system was broken. So there never was much of a market and then Microsoft came along and paid the OEMs to install Windows.
Quite a few website will let you untick the windows 11 licence if you want to go your own way.
Unfortunately the Linux market is so fragmented that your average user is overwhelmed. This is not helped by the Linux community who in a general rule are not particularly accommodating towards novices.
You can buy computers without an operating system installed on it
AFAIR that hasn’t been the case in most places for a while precisely because Microsoft made partnerships with OEMs to avoid that situation.
I believe new laws were added, e.g. in Europe, but I would be curious were this was the case. In fact I remember the opposite, namely that most computers one would buy always came with an OS, Windows for PC and MacOS for Apple computers. Even computers that one would buy in part that would be assembled for them from non OEM would also have the options to have an OS. In fact I’d be curious about example of fully assemble PCs, not just parts nor SBCs, that could be purchased without an OS before the law in the places where its the case now, would prove an OS-free option. Can you please share examples?
Also, assuming you do find such examples (thanks in advance) I’d then be curious what’s the market share, namely is it significant, e.g. 10% or is it basically anecdotal, e.g. 0.01% and thus just enough to say “it’s possible” yet has no actual impact.
being asshole towards less technically adept people about linux should become something that gets you seriously shamed and even ostracized if it continues. that kind of behavior hurts ALL of us by reducing popularity of linux and this reducing developer interest in supporting linux, which also means less drivers for critical components which in turn might mean your pc just cant utilize linux.
Personally, i have issue of internet getting randomly cut off due to too old drivers for my network adapter/chipset/not sure. The motherboard i use is one of the latest there is.
This issue has apparently persisted for years now, according to forum posts about it. So i’m directly suffering from linux not being popular enough.
-> Someone else would just return to windows because this is quite insuffreable even for me. But personally i’m happier with malfunctioning linux system than correctly working windows.
Unfortunately the Linux market is so fragmented that your average user is overwhelmed. This is not helped by the Linux community who in a general rule are not particularly accommodating towards novices.
Omg yes. I’m considering going to linux at home for my next system but when I look at my options I can look at 10 sources and get 10 different recommendations. There are a million flavors of linux now. Every time I look into the subject I see a new flavor has been released. I also don’t want to get comfortable with one version only to find out it isn’t supported or updated a few years from now and have to switch. My goal is to use it, not to be a sys admin in my spare time.
I’m tech savvier than most people so even talking about linux to the avg person is like talking about nuclear physics. Usually when I read a story about, say, someone’s mom using it, it is because some very skilled linux fan installed and set it up for them.
You get beaten up for just bringing these points up.
Linux for personal use can be undependable. I have a use case where I don’t mind configuring stuff, but once setup I need that shit to mf work every time all the time and it not working results in direct loss and depending on when potentially substantial loss. I say this as an avid linux user.
Its really a shame every desktop distro has that problem, then.
Sometimes, you install updates, even on your LTS branch distro, and stuff gets really broken. You can roll back, but can sometimes have to fiddle with the computer to get it working enough to where you can do that.
If you’ve got a mission critical workflow, you essentially need 2 computers, regardless of the OS you’re using.
been running Debian trixie for the last year and had zero problems. previously on bookworm for two years still no problems.
before that I was on Almalinux for a year, zero problems.
and from 2014-2019 I was on Fedora, again no problems.
pre-2014 I was on some variant of distro just can’t remember that far back (probably some variant of redhat like centos).
sporadically I’ve used other distros like Mint, Ubuntu, Arch, BSD, Kali, Raspbian, etc. There were some stability issues with Mint and Ubuntu but everything else was rock solid.
For decades I have run and supported rhel, fedora, centos, debian, as servers.
like I said, it’s either the distro, or a skills issue. if you are having problems after updates, you have a package problem and should probably clean up your dependency tree/repos.
Case in point: Typing from a spare Surface Pro that I installed Ubuntu and some support drivers on for the touchscreen. Some update broke the touchscreen drivers, and I needed a keyboard and a lot of googling to repair them.
If this had happened on Windows, someone likely could’ve taken it to their repair shop or to Microsoft. Sadly, these days even Microsoft might’ve dropped any user aid.
Most people today think computers like toasters, they don’t mind what OS they use or how to setup it. They want it to be ready to use right after they get it to the home. Similar as toasters or microwave ovens, you don’t expect to have to do any setup work for them.
I don’t think it’s a good way to start using the computer, but unfortunately most people are that kind of people.
That’s why Linux will never be the mainstream OS, no matter how hard you try to convince people to install and use it.
I wouldn’t buy a car if I had to install my own engine or dashboard. “You selected the x322 dash. Here are your parts and a manual. Good luck!” It shouldn’t be surprising if 99% of the population doesn’t want a similar experience with their devices. PCs and such have become consumer devices, not hobbyist ones.
I don’t understand the argument. Linux already is mainstream since there are millions (number out of my ass, I don’t actually know) of devices people buy and “just” use Linux. Those clients are no tinkerers or developers, “just” gamers including I bet a significant proportion who are not even adults. My bet is when those people are asked “Are you using Linux?” they either don’t know, or don’t care, and yet when they finally realize they are actually using Linux daily they probably think “Wow, it’s not that complicated, it just works” and thus it will change mindsets at scale.
Im sorry if you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, I think it’s because I have very poor English skills.
I tried to say that people don’t want to have computer, which they need to install operating system before they can use it. And because almost every computer has Windows or macOS when you buy it, why would they want to start installing anything other?
Only people who are keen on computers are willing to do that.
I use Linux BTW.
For most of us on Lemmy, buying a PC with no OS installed is like buying a car with an empty fuel tank and/or battery. It’s ready to preform at 100% in about 10 minutes.
For most other people, it feels more like buying a car that’s completely missing an engine/motor/battery. They don’t even know where to start, even though in the case of the PC the process is many orders of magnitude simpler.
Right, and to be clear I’m not suggesting to “just” buy a PC without an OS.
I’m suggesting both PC manufacturers and OS providers make an effort to facilitate that step.
One good example IMHO would be Raspberry Pi and its Imager. Yes you get your Pi but that’s not just it, you can get install Raspberry Pi OS … or Ubuntu, Apertis, RISC OS Pi, … but also media ones e.g. LibreELEC, OSMC, etc … or emulation with RetroPie, Batoccera.linux, … but still more with RaspAP, MoodleBox, … and countless others. You follow the steps thanks to a colorful GUI, put a microSD card in when prompted, wait, remove it, but in the SBC, boot and voila.
I’m not claiming it’s perfect or that anybody could do it but I believe it’s a good compromise ihelping people getting the OS they need if only they are genuinely ready to spend 10min for it.
… and I’m grateful for that but maybe we can finally decouple from OEM for OSes? Maybe could JUST buy a computer and not be forced an OS on it?
Sure I admit it feels nice to unwrap a new device, turn it on, set up few options and use it. Yet, the alternative it to turn it on, plug a USB drive on it, turn it on, set up few options, wait for 15min tops for installation to proceed and use it.
It’s actually a ~15min difference but it could bring so many good practices.
This is beyond 99% of the population who just want it to work out of the box. This would be impossible with any apple hardware also.
Well 100% in fact as that’s NOT the definition of “out of the box”.
I genuinely feel like there’s an appriciable percentage of the population that don’t even know that other operating systems exist. For whom Windows is “the computer” and for whom even Apple being a separate operating system is a difficult concept to grasp. If that’s truely the state technical literacy is in with a sizable slice of the population, then it’s quite the hurtle even explaining the basics of what Linux is. Let alone using it.
But then people would have to learn. That’s scawy 🥺
Learn about a tool that is basically in the middle of some of the most crucial interactions in their lives? From receiving an email to vote, to booking an appointment to get a passport, to working, to dating, to browsing an encyclopedia, to entertainment broadly, to creating music, to …?
I’ll stop there but yes, even though learning is scary I think if the safety net is clear enough (namely you just can’t mess up so badly your brand new computer won’t work) then it’s worth investing in.
You don’t need to convince me. I’m all for people having a basic understanding of the tools they use on a daily basis.
But my observation is that people seem predominantly opposed to the idea.
That’s like saying that everyone should become an electrician. It’s just not a practical expectation.
No. But everyone should have a basic understanding how electricity works, so they’re not surprised that they better switch it off when working on the wiring and can at least make a guess of how it’ll behave once powered.
They don’t need to get into the dynamics of capacitors, diodes, transistors or other electronic components, but having heard of them certainly wouldn’t hurt.
In my experience people who know a little about computers are more dangerous than the ones who know nothing.
I’ve had people come into the repair shop who’ve uninstalled programs they don’t recognise and then it turns out that the programs they don’t recognise was the graphics driver. A complete novice would just have not gone into the program list to begin with.
Do schools even teach basic computing anymore, when I was at school we got taught how to program and I feel like that’s not done anymore.
I was taught basic programming in school - by people who clearly had no clue. (it was clear to 11 year old me, and in hindsight I was far to kind in my evaluation of their knowledge) I was also taught on the then very modern apply IIgs - I wouldn’t be surprised if you have never heard of that, but all you need to know is nothing I was taught is relevant anyway - if you were taught on windows 7 a lot of what you learned has changed anyway.
Point is we need to teach people to teach themselves because things change.
You can buy computers without an operating system installed on it but most consumers barely understand what a computer is and would think that a computer without an operating system was broken. So there never was much of a market and then Microsoft came along and paid the OEMs to install Windows.
Quite a few website will let you untick the windows 11 licence if you want to go your own way.
Unfortunately the Linux market is so fragmented that your average user is overwhelmed. This is not helped by the Linux community who in a general rule are not particularly accommodating towards novices.
AFAIR that hasn’t been the case in most places for a while precisely because Microsoft made partnerships with OEMs to avoid that situation.
I believe new laws were added, e.g. in Europe, but I would be curious were this was the case. In fact I remember the opposite, namely that most computers one would buy always came with an OS, Windows for PC and MacOS for Apple computers. Even computers that one would buy in part that would be assembled for them from non OEM would also have the options to have an OS. In fact I’d be curious about example of fully assemble PCs, not just parts nor SBCs, that could be purchased without an OS before the law in the places where its the case now, would prove an OS-free option. Can you please share examples?
Also, assuming you do find such examples (thanks in advance) I’d then be curious what’s the market share, namely is it significant, e.g. 10% or is it basically anecdotal, e.g. 0.01% and thus just enough to say “it’s possible” yet has no actual impact.
The last place I saw it as an option was on the framework website.
Luckily this trend is shifting! More and more linux distros oriented towards users new to linux, and helpful communities.
being asshole towards less technically adept people about linux should become something that gets you seriously shamed and even ostracized if it continues. that kind of behavior hurts ALL of us by reducing popularity of linux and this reducing developer interest in supporting linux, which also means less drivers for critical components which in turn might mean your pc just cant utilize linux.
Personally, i have issue of internet getting randomly cut off due to too old drivers for my network adapter/chipset/not sure. The motherboard i use is one of the latest there is.
This issue has apparently persisted for years now, according to forum posts about it. So i’m directly suffering from linux not being popular enough.
-> Someone else would just return to windows because this is quite insuffreable even for me. But personally i’m happier with malfunctioning linux system than correctly working windows.
Omg yes. I’m considering going to linux at home for my next system but when I look at my options I can look at 10 sources and get 10 different recommendations. There are a million flavors of linux now. Every time I look into the subject I see a new flavor has been released. I also don’t want to get comfortable with one version only to find out it isn’t supported or updated a few years from now and have to switch. My goal is to use it, not to be a sys admin in my spare time.
I’m tech savvier than most people so even talking about linux to the avg person is like talking about nuclear physics. Usually when I read a story about, say, someone’s mom using it, it is because some very skilled linux fan installed and set it up for them.
You get beaten up for just bringing these points up.
Apple IIs had the OS built into the ROMs.
Apple DOS was on a disk. There wasn’t really any OS, you operated the computer through the BASIC interpreter.
Linux for personal use can be undependable. I have a use case where I don’t mind configuring stuff, but once setup I need that shit to mf work every time all the time and it not working results in direct loss and depending on when potentially substantial loss. I say this as an avid linux user.
That describes ever OS ever.
if you run into stability issues on Linux the problem is either your distro or you.
Its really a shame every desktop distro has that problem, then.
Sometimes, you install updates, even on your LTS branch distro, and stuff gets really broken. You can roll back, but can sometimes have to fiddle with the computer to get it working enough to where you can do that.
If you’ve got a mission critical workflow, you essentially need 2 computers, regardless of the OS you’re using.
been running Debian trixie for the last year and had zero problems. previously on bookworm for two years still no problems.
before that I was on Almalinux for a year, zero problems.
and from 2014-2019 I was on Fedora, again no problems.
pre-2014 I was on some variant of distro just can’t remember that far back (probably some variant of redhat like centos).
sporadically I’ve used other distros like Mint, Ubuntu, Arch, BSD, Kali, Raspbian, etc. There were some stability issues with Mint and Ubuntu but everything else was rock solid.
For decades I have run and supported rhel, fedora, centos, debian, as servers.
like I said, it’s either the distro, or a skills issue. if you are having problems after updates, you have a package problem and should probably clean up your dependency tree/repos.
Case in point: Typing from a spare Surface Pro that I installed Ubuntu and some support drivers on for the touchscreen. Some update broke the touchscreen drivers, and I needed a keyboard and a lot of googling to repair them.
If this had happened on Windows, someone likely could’ve taken it to their repair shop or to Microsoft. Sadly, these days even Microsoft might’ve dropped any user aid.
Although in fairness Windows is not being particularly reliable in that regard as of late.
Most people today think computers like toasters, they don’t mind what OS they use or how to setup it. They want it to be ready to use right after they get it to the home. Similar as toasters or microwave ovens, you don’t expect to have to do any setup work for them. I don’t think it’s a good way to start using the computer, but unfortunately most people are that kind of people. That’s why Linux will never be the mainstream OS, no matter how hard you try to convince people to install and use it.
I wouldn’t buy a car if I had to install my own engine or dashboard. “You selected the x322 dash. Here are your parts and a manual. Good luck!” It shouldn’t be surprising if 99% of the population doesn’t want a similar experience with their devices. PCs and such have become consumer devices, not hobbyist ones.
Exactly this.
The SteamDeck prove that wrong, it’s already mainstream.
Android has proven that wrong before.
But you see, you don’t need to install it yourself, it’s just a plug and play.
I don’t understand the argument. Linux already is mainstream since there are millions (number out of my ass, I don’t actually know) of devices people buy and “just” use Linux. Those clients are no tinkerers or developers, “just” gamers including I bet a significant proportion who are not even adults. My bet is when those people are asked “Are you using Linux?” they either don’t know, or don’t care, and yet when they finally realize they are actually using Linux daily they probably think “Wow, it’s not that complicated, it just works” and thus it will change mindsets at scale.
Im sorry if you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, I think it’s because I have very poor English skills. I tried to say that people don’t want to have computer, which they need to install operating system before they can use it. And because almost every computer has Windows or macOS when you buy it, why would they want to start installing anything other? Only people who are keen on computers are willing to do that. I use Linux BTW.
Dead ass, just ship it with the latest Linux kernel, users can do the rest lol
For most of us on Lemmy, buying a PC with no OS installed is like buying a car with an empty fuel tank and/or battery. It’s ready to preform at 100% in about 10 minutes.
For most other people, it feels more like buying a car that’s completely missing an engine/motor/battery. They don’t even know where to start, even though in the case of the PC the process is many orders of magnitude simpler.
Right, and to be clear I’m not suggesting to “just” buy a PC without an OS.
I’m suggesting both PC manufacturers and OS providers make an effort to facilitate that step.
One good example IMHO would be Raspberry Pi and its Imager. Yes you get your Pi but that’s not just it, you can get install Raspberry Pi OS … or Ubuntu, Apertis, RISC OS Pi, … but also media ones e.g. LibreELEC, OSMC, etc … or emulation with RetroPie, Batoccera.linux, … but still more with RaspAP, MoodleBox, … and countless others. You follow the steps thanks to a colorful GUI, put a microSD card in when prompted, wait, remove it, but in the SBC, boot and voila.
I’m not claiming it’s perfect or that anybody could do it but I believe it’s a good compromise ihelping people getting the OS they need if only they are genuinely ready to spend 10min for it.