Anubis isn’t supposed to be hard to avoid, but expensive to avoid. Not really surprised that a big company might be willing to throw a bunch of cash at it.
This is what I’ve kept saying about POW being a shit bot management tactic. Its a flat tax across all users, real or fake. The fake users are making money to access your site and will just eat the added expense. You can raise the tax to cost more than what your data is worth to them, but that also affects your real users. Nothing about Anubis even attempts to differentiate between bots and real users.
If the bots take the time, they can set up a pipeline to solve Anubis tokens outside of the browser more efficiently than real users.
Yeah but ai companies are losing money so in the long run Anubis seems like it should eventually return to working.
Costs of solving PoW for Anubis is absolutely not a factor in any AI companies budget. Just the costs of answering one question is millions of times more expensive than running sha256sum for Anubis.
Just in case you’re being glib and mean the businesses will go under regardless of Anubis: most of these are coming from China. China absolutely will keep running these companies at a loss for the sake of strategic development.
Thanks for the info 👍 would not have thought Anubis would be so irrelevant
No, it’s expensive to comply (at a massive scale), but easy to avoid. Just change the user agent. There’s even a dedicated extension for bypassing Anubis.
Even then AI servers have plenty of compute, it realistically doesn’t cost much. Maybe like a thousandth of a cent per solve? They’re spending billions on GPU power, they don’t care.
I’ve been saying this since day 1 of Anubis but nobody wants to hear it.
The website would also have to display to users at the end of the day. It’s a similar problem as trying to solve media piracy. Worst comes to it, the crawlers could read the page like a person would.
I mean, we really have to ask ourselves - as a civilization - whether human collaboration is more important than AI data harvesting.
I think every company in the world is telling everyone for a few months now that what matter is AI data harvesting. There’s not even a hint of it being a question. You either accept the AI overlords or get out of the internet. Our ONLY purpose it to feed the machine, anything else is irrelevant. Play along or you shall be removed.
We need to poison better.
I was fine before the AI.
The biggest customer of AI are the billionaires who can’t hire enough people for their technofeudalist/surveillance capitalism agenda. The billionaires (wannabe aristocrats) know that machines have no morals, no bottom lines, no scruples, don’t leak info to the press, don’t complain, don’t demand to take time off or to work from home, etc.
AI makes the perfect fascist.
They sell AI like it’s a benefit to us all, but it ain’t that. It’s a benefit to the billionaires who think they own our world.
AI is used for censorship, surveillance pricing, activism/protest analysis, making firing decisions, making kill decisions in battle, etc. It’s a nightmare fuel under our system of absurd wealth concentration.
Fuck AI.
Can there be a challenge that actually does some maliciously useful compute? Like make their crawlers mine bitcoin or something.
Did you just say use the words “useful” and “bitcoin” in the same sentence? o_O
The saddest part is, we thought crypto was the biggest waste of energy ever and then the LLMs entered the chat.
At least LLMs produce something, even if it’s slop, all crypto does is… What does crypto even do again?
Crypto does drug sales and fraud!
It also makes it’s fans poorer, which at least is funny, especially since they never learn
ouch. I never made that comparison, but that is on point.
Bro couldn’t even bring himself to mention protein folding because that’s too socialist I guess.
You’re 100% right. I just grasped at the first example I could think of where the crawlers could do free work. Yours is much better. Left is best.
LLMs can’t do protein folding. A specifically-trained Machine Learning model called AlphaFold did. Here’s the paper.
Developing, training and fine tuning that model was a research effort led by two guys who got a Nobel for it. Alphafold can’t do conversation or give you hummus recipes, it knows shit about the structure of human language but can identify patterns in the domain where it has been specifically and painstakingly trained.
It wasn’t “hey chatGPT, show me how to fold a protein” is all I’m saying and the “superhuman reasoning capabilities” of current LLMs are still falling ridiculously short of much simpler problems.
The crawlers for LLM are not themselves LLMs.
They can’t bitcoin mine either, so technical feasibility wasn’t the goal of my reply
Crawlers aren’t LLMs; they can do arbitrary computations (whatever the target demands to access resources).
Hey dipshits:
The number of mouth-breathers who think every fucking “AI” is a fucking LLM is too damn high.
AlphaFold is not a language model. It is specifically designed to predict the 3D structure of proteins, using a neural network architecture that reasons over a spatial graph of the protein’s amino acids.
- Every artificial intelligence is not a deep neural network algorithm.
- Every deep neural network algorithm is not a generative adversarial network.
- Every generative adversarial network is not a language model.
- Every language model is not a large language model.
Fucking fart-sniffing twats.
$ ./end-rant.sh
I went back and added “malicious” because I knew it wasn’t useful in reality. I just wanted to express the AI crawlers doing free work. But you’re right, bitcoin sucks.
To be fair: it’s a great tool for scamming people (think ransomware) :/
Great for money laundering.
Is it? Don’t you risk losing a rather large percentage of the value.
Just by cars or something as they are much better at keeping their value. Also if somebody asks where did you get all this money from you can just point to the car and say, I sold that.
Not without making real users also mine bitcoin/avoiding the site because their performance tanked.
The Monero community spent a long time trying to find a “useful PoW” function. The problem is that most computations that are useful are not also easy to verify as correct. javascript optimization was one direction that got pursued pretty far.
But at the end of the day, a crypto that actually intends to withstand attacks from major governments requires a system that is decentralized, trustless, and verifiable, and the only solutions that have been found to date involve algorithms for which a GPU or even custom ASIC confers no significant advantage over a consumer-grade CPU.
Crazy. DDoS attacks are illegal here in the UK.
So, sue the attackers?
The problem is that hundreds of bad actors doing the same thing independently of one another means it does not qualify as a DDoS attack. Maybe it’s time we start legally restricting bots and crawlers, though.
I know this is the most ridiculous idea, but we need to pack our bags and make a new internet protocol, to separate us from the rest, at least for a while. Either way, most “modern” internet things (looking at you, JavaScript) are not modern at all, and starting over might help more than any of us could imagine.
Like Gemini?
From official Website:
Gemini is a new internet technology supporting an electronic library of interconnected text documents. That’s not a new idea, but it’s not old fashioned either. It’s timeless, and deserves tools which treat it as a first class concept, not a vestigial corner case. Gemini isn’t about innovation or disruption, it’s about providing some respite for those who feel the internet has been disrupted enough already. We’re not out to change the world or destroy other technologies. We are out to build a lightweight online space where documents are just documents, in the interests of every reader’s privacy, attention and bandwidth.
Yep! That was exactly the protocol on my mind. One thing, though, is that the Fediverse would need to be ported to Gemini, or at least for a new protocol to be created for Gemini.
If it becomes popular enough that it’s used by a lot of people then the bots will move over there too.
They are after data, so they will go where it is.
One of the reasons that all of the bots are suddenly interested in this site is that everyone’s moving away from GitHub, suddenly there’s lots of appealing tasty data for them to gobble up.
This is how you get bots, Lana
Yes, I know. But, while trying to find a way to bomb the AI datacenters (/s, hopefully it doesn’t come to this), we can stall their attacks.
Won’t the bots just adapt and move there too?
Gosh. Corporations are rampantly attempting to access resources so they can perform copyright infringement en-masse. I wonder if there is a legal mechanism to stop them? Oh, no there isn’t because our government is fully corrupted.
We had a trust based system for so long. No one is forced to honor robots.txt, but most big players did. Almost restores my faith in humanity a little bit. And then AI companies came and destroyed everything. This is why we can’t have nice things.
Big players are the ones behind most AIs though.
Is there a migration tool? If not would be awesome to migrate everything including issues and stuff. Bet even more people would move.
Codeberg has very good migration tools built in. You need to do one repo at a time, but it can move issues, releases, and everything.
There are migration tools, but not a good bulk one that I could find. It worked for my repos except for my unreal engine fork.
Okay what about…what about uhhh… Static site builders that render the whole page out as an image map, making it visible for humans but useless for crawlers 🤔🤔🤔
Accessibility gets throw out the window?
I wasn’t being totally serious, but also, I do think that while accessibility concerns come from a good place, there is some practical limitation that must be accepted when building fringe and counter-cultural things. Like, my hidden rebel base can’t have a wheelchair accessible ramp at the entrance, because then my base isn’t hidden anymore. It sucks that some solutions can’t work for everyone, but if we just throw them out because it won’t work for 5% of people, we end up with nothing. I’d rather have a solution that works for 95% of people than no solution at all. I’m not saying that people who use screen readers are second-class citizens. If crawlers were vision-based then I might suggest matching text to background colors so that only screen readers work to understand the site. Because something that works for 5% of people is also better than no solution at all. We need to tolerate having imperfect first attempts and understand that more sophisticated infrastructure comes later.
But yes my image map idea is pretty much a joke nonetheless
AI is pretty good at OCR now. I think that would just make it worse for humans while making very little difference to the AI.
The crawlers are likely not AI though, but yes OCR could be done effectively without AI anyways. This idea ultimately boils down to the same hope Anubis had of making the processing costs large enough to not be worth it.
OCR could be done effectively without AI
OCR has been neural nets even before convolutional networks emerged in the 2010s
Yeah you’re right, I was using AI in the colloquial modern sense. My mistake. It actually drives me nuts when people do that. I should have said “without compute-heavy AI”.
My mistake
hold on I am still somewhat new to Fedi & not fully used to people being polite
Do you know how trivial it is to screenshot a website and push it through an OCR ?
This battle is completely unwinnable, just put a full dumb.zip of the public data on the front door and nobody will waste their time with a scrapper.
Is the data public or is it not ? At this point all that you’re doing anyway is entrench the power of openai, google and facebook while starving any possible alternative.
Anubis will never work, no version of anubis will ever be anything more than a temporary speed bump.
Yeah, I do. I’m just grasping at straws. But you’re right, the only real solution, ironically, is to have non-open sites where you need accounts to view content. I wouldn’t mind seeing some private phpbb forums though.
AI these days reads text from images better than humans can
Computer vision models can read/parse pixel geometry.
Eventually we’ll have “defensive” and “offensive” llm’s managing all kinds of electronic warfare automatically, effectively nullifying each other.
That’s actually a major plot point in Cyberpunk 2077. There’s thousands of rogue AI’s on the net that are constantly bombarding a giant firewall protecting the main net and everything connected to it from being taken over by the AI.
Unrelated, but I saw this headline, and could hear both you and squidward swearing from here.
It doesn’t bode well. Honestly I fear at some point in the future, if these countermeasures can’t keep up, small sites may need to close themselves off with invite-only access. Hopefully that’s quite a distant future.
Not to mention the firewall is itself AI.
Places like cloudflare and akamai are already using machine learning algorithms to detect bot traffic at a network level. You need to use similar machine learning to evade them. And since most of these scrapers are for AI companies I’d expect a lot of the scrapers to be LLM generated.
Obligatory AI ≠ LLM. How would scrapers benefit from the LLMs they help train? The defense is obvious, LLM-generated slop traps against scrapers already exist.
Question: those artificial stupidity bots want to steal the issues or want to steal the code? Because why they’re wasting a lot of resources scraping millions of pages when they can steal everything via SSH (once a month, not 120 times a second)
That would require having someone with real intelligence running the scraper.
Just provide a full dump.zip plus incremental daily dumps and they won’t have to scrape ?
Isn’t that an obvious solution ? I mean, it’s public data, it’s out there, do you want it public or not ?
Do you want it only on openai and google but nowhere else ? If so then good luck with the piranhasThe Wikimedia Foundation does just that, and still, their infrastructure is under stress because of AI scrapers.
Dumps or no dumps, these AI companies don’t care. They feel like they’re entitled to taking or stealing what they want.
That’s crazy, it makes no sense, it takes as much bandwidth and processing power on the scraper side to process and use the data as it takes to serve it.
They also have an open API that makes scraper entirely unnecessary too.
Here are the relevant quotes from the article you posted
“Scraping has become so prominent that our outgoing bandwidth has increased by 50% in 2024.”
“At least 65% of our most expensive requests (the ones that we can’t serve from our caching servers and which are served from the main databases instead) are performed by bots.”
“Over the past year, we saw a significant increase in the amount of scraper traffic, and also of related site-stability incidents: Site Reliability Engineers have had to enforce on a case-by-case basis rate limiting or banning of crawlers repeatedly to protect our infrastructure.”
And it’s wikipedia ! The entire data set is trained INTO the models already, it’s not like encyclopedic facts change that often to begin with !
The only thing I imagine is that it is part of a larger ecosystem issue, there the rare case where a dump and API access is so rare, and so untrust worthy that the scrapers are just using scrape for everything, rather than taking the time to save bandwidth by relying on dumps.
Maybe it’s consequences from the 2023 API wars, where it was made clear that data repositories would be leveraging their place as pool of knowledge to extract rent from search and AI and places like wikipedia and other wikis and forums are getting hammered as a result of this war.
If the internet wasn’t becoming a warzone, there really wouldn’t be a need for more than one scraper to scrape a site, even if the site was hostile, like facebook, it only need to be scraped once and then the data could be shared over a torrent swarm efficiently.
The problem isn’t that the data is already public.
The problem is that the AI crawlers want to check on it every 5 minutes, even if you try to tell all crawlers that the file is updated daily, or that the file hasn’t been updated in a month.
AI crawlers don’t care about
robots.txtor other helpful hints about what’s worth crawling or not, and hints on when it’s good time to crawl again.Yeah but there’s would be scrappers if the robots file just pointed to a dump file.
Then the scraper could just do a spot check a few dozen random page and check the dump is actually up to date and complete and then they’d know they don’t need to waste any time there and move on.
I think the issue is that the scrapers are fully automatically collecting text, jumping from link to link like a search engine indexer.
I knew that was the worse option. Use the one that traps them in an infinite maze.
And once again a WebApplicationFirewall(WAF) was defeated and it turns out that blocklists and bot detection tools like fail2ban are the way to go…
Who could have seen this coming…
