I like my project manager, they find me work, ask how I’m doing and talk straight.
It’s when the CEO/CTO/CFO speaks where my eyes glaze over, my mouth sags, and I bounce my neck at prompted intervals as my brain retreats into itself as it frantically tosses words and phrases into the meaning grinder and cranks the wheel, only for nothing to come out of it time and time again.
COs are corporate politicians, media trained to only say things which are completely unrevealing and lacking of any substance.
This is by design so that sensitive information is centrally controlled, leaks are difficult, and sudden changes in direction cause the minimum amount of whiplash to ICs as possible.
I have the same reaction as you, but the system is working as intended. Better to just shut it out as you described and use the time to think about that issue you’re having on a personal project or what toy to buy for your cat’s birthday.
Better to just shut it out as you described and use the time to think about that issue you’re having on a personal project or what toy to buy for your cat’s birthday.
Exactly. Do the daily corpo dance and cheer if they babbling about innovation, progress, growth and new products. Do not fight against it. Just take your money and put your valuable time and energy elsewhere.
Right, that sweet spot between too less stimuli so your brain just wants to sleep or run away and enough stimuli so you can’t just zone out (or sleep).
Find a better C-suite
I just turn of my camera and turn on Forza Motorsport or something like that
Optimizing AI performance by “scaling” is lazy and wasteful.
Reminds me of back in the early 2000s when someone would say don’t worry about performance, GHz will always go up.
Thing is, same as with GHz, you have to do it as much as you can until the gains get too small. You do that, then you move on to the next optimization. Like ai has and is now optimizing test time compute, token quality, and other areas.
To be fair, GHz did go up. Granted, it’s not why modern processors are faster and more efficient.
TIL
don’t worry about performance, GHz will always go up
TF2 devs lol
It always wins in the end though. Look up the bitter lesson.
I miss flash players.
It’s ironic how conservative the spending actually is.
Awesome ML papers and ideas come out every week. Low power training/inference optimizations, fundamental changes in the math like bitnet, new attention mechanisms, cool tools to make models more controllable and steerable and grounded. This is all getting funded, right?
No.
Universities and such are seeding and putting out all this research, but the big model trainers holding the purse strings/GPU clusters are not using them. They just keep releasing very similar, mostly bog standard transformers models over and over again, bar a tiny expense for a little experiment here and there. In other words, it’s full corporate: tiny, guaranteed incremental improvements without changing much, and no sharing with each other. It’s hilariously inefficient. And it relies on lies and jawboning from people like Sam Altman.
Deepseek is what happens when a company is smart but resource constrained. An order of magnitude more efficient, and even their architecture was very conservative.
The actual survey result:
Asked whether “scaling up” current AI approaches could lead to achieving artificial general intelligence (AGI), or a general purpose AI that matches or surpasses human cognition, an overwhelming 76 percent of respondents said it was “unlikely” or “very unlikely” to succeed.
So they’re not saying the entire industry is a dead end, or even that the newest phase is. They’re just saying they don’t think this current technology will make AGI when scaled. I think most people agree, including the investors pouring billions into this. They arent betting this will turn to agi, they’re betting that they have some application for the current ai. Are some of those applications dead ends, most definitely, are some of them revolutionary, maybe
Thus would be like asking a researcher in the 90s that if they scaled up the bandwidth and computing power of the average internet user would we see a vastly connected media sharing network, they’d probably say no. It took more than a decade of software, cultural and societal development to discover the applications for the internet.
It’s becoming clear from the data that more error correction needs exponentially more data. I suspect that pretty soon we will realize that what’s been built is a glorified homework cheater and a better search engine.
what’s been built is a glorified homework cheater and an
betterunreliable search engine.
I agree that it’s editorialized compared to the very neutral way the survey puts it. That said, I think you also have to take into account how AI has been marketed by the industry.
They have been claiming AGI is right around the corner pretty much since chatGPT first came to market. It’s often implied (e.g. you’ll be able to replace workers with this) or they are more vague on timeline (e.g. OpenAI saying they believe their research will eventually lead to AGI).
With that context I think it’s fair to editorialize to this being a dead-end, because even with billions of dollars being poured into this, they won’t be able to deliver AGI on the timeline they are promising.
AI isn’t going to figure out what a customer wants when the customer doesn’t know what they want.
Part of it is we keep realizing AGI is a lot more broader and more complex than we think
Yeah, it does some tricks, some of them even useful, but the investment is not for the demonstrated capability or realistic extrapolation of that, it is for the sort of product like OpenAI is promising equivalent to a full time research assistant for 20k a month. Which is way more expensive than an actual research assistant, but that’s not stopping them from making the pitch.
The bigger loss is the ENORMOUS amounts of energy required to train these models. Training an AI can use up more than half the entire output of the average nuclear plant.
AI data centers also generate a ton of CO². For example, training an AI produces more CO² than a 55 year old human has produced since birth.
Complete waste.
Right, simply scaling won’t lead to AGI, there will need to be some algorithmic changes. But nobody in the world knows what those are yet. Is it a simple framework on top of LLMs like the “atom of thought” paper? Or are transformers themselves a dead end? Or is multimodality the secret to AGI? I don’t think anyone really knows.
No there’s some ideas out there. Concepts like heirarchical reinforcement learning are more likely to lead to AGI with creation of foundational policies, problem is as it stands, it’s a really difficult technique to use so it isn’t used often. And LLMs have sucked all the research dollars out of any other ideas.
I think most people agree, including the investors pouring billions into this.
The same investors that poured (and are still pouring) billions into crypto, and invested in sub-prime loans and valued pets.com at $300M? I don’t see any way the companies will be able to recoup the costs of their investment in “AI” datacenters (i.e. the $500B Stargate or $80B Microsoft; probably upwards of a trillion dollars globally invested in these data-centers).
Technology in most cases progresses on a logarithmic scale when innovation isn’t prioritized. We’ve basically reached the plateau of what LLMs can currently do without a breakthrough. They could absorb all the information on the internet and not even come close to what they say it is. These days we’re in the “bells and whistles” phase where they add unnecessary bullshit to make it seem new like adding 5 cameras to a phone or adding touchscreens to cars. Things that make something seem fancy by slapping buzzwords and features nobody needs without needing to actually change anything but bump up the price.
I remember listening to a podcast that is about scientific explanations. The guy hosting it is very knowledgeable about this subject, does his research and talks to experts when the subject involves something he isn’t himself an expert.
There was this episode where he kinda got into the topic of how technology only evolves with science (because you need to understand the stuff you’re doing and you need a theory of how it works before you make new assumptions and test those assumptions). He gave an example of the Apple visionPro being a machine that despite being new (the hardware capabilities, at least), the algorithm for tracking eyes they use was developed decades ago and was already well understood and proven correct by other applications.
So his point in the episode is that real innovation just can’t be rushed by throwing money or more people at a problem. Because real innovation takes real scientists having novel insights and experiments to expand the knowledge we have. Sometimes those insights are completely random, often you need to have a whole career in that field and sometimes it takes a new genius to revolutionize it (think Newton and Einstein).
Even the current wave of LLMs are simply a product of the Google’s paper that showed we could parallelize language models, leading to the creation of “larger language models”. That was Google doing science. But you can’t control when some new breakthrough is discovered, and LLMs are subject to this constraint.
In fact, the only practice we know that actually accelerates science is the collaboration of scientists around the world, the publishing of reproducible papers so that others can expand upon and have insights you didn’t even think about, and so on.
There’s been several smaller breakthroughs since then that arguably would not have happened without so many scientists suddenly turning their attention to the field.
I liked generative AI more when it was just a funny novelty and not being advertised to everyone under the false pretenses of being smart and useful. Its architecture is incompatible with actual intelligence, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves. (It does make an alright autocomplete though).
The peak of AI for me was generating images Muppet versions of the Breaking Bad cast; it’s been downhill since.
Like all the previous bubbles of scam that were kinda interesting or fun for novelty and once money came pouring in became absolut chaos and maddening.
It peaked when it was good enough to generate short somewhat coherent phrases. We’d make it generate ideas for silly things and laugh at how ridiculous the results were.
AGI models will enter the market in under 5 years according to experts and scientists.
trust me bro, we’re almost there, we just need another data center and a few billions, it’s coming i promise, we are testing incredible things internally, can’t wait to show you!
We are having massive exponential increases in output with all sorts of innovations, every few weeks another big step forward happens
Around a year ago I bet a friend $100 we won’t have AGI by 2029, and I’d do the same today. LLMs are nothing more than fancy predictive text and are incapable of thinking or reasoning. We burn through immense amounts of compute and terabytes of data to train them, then stick them together in a convoluted mess, only to end up with something that’s still dumber than the average human. In comparison humans are “trained” with maybe ten thousand “tokens” and ten megajoules of energy a day for a decade or two, and take only a couple dozen watts for even the most complex thinking.
Humans are “trained” with maybe ten thousand “tokens” per day
Uhhh… you may wanna rerun those numbers.
It’s waaaaaaaay more than that lol.
and take only a couple dozen watts for even the most complex thinking
Mate’s literally got smoke coming out if his ears lol.
A single
Whis 860 calories…I think you either have no idea wtf you are talking about, or your just made up a bunch of extremely wrong numbers to try and look smart.
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Humans will encounter hundreds of thousands of tokens per day, ramping up to millions in school.
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An human, by my estimate, has burned about 13,000 Wh by the time they reach adulthood. Maybe more depending in activity levels.
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While yes, an AI costs substantially more
Wh, it also is done in weeks so it’s obviously going to be way less energy efficient due to the exponential laws of resistance. If we grew a functional human in like 2 months it’d prolly require way WAY more than 13,000Whduring the process for similiar reasons. -
Once trained, a single model can be duplicated infinitely. So it’d be more fair to compare how much millions of people cost to raise, compared to a single model to be trained. Because once trained, you can now make millions of copies of it…
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Operating costs are continuing to go down and down and down. Diffusion based text generation just made another huge leap forward, reporting around a twenty times efficiency increase over traditional gpt style LLMs. Improvements like this are coming out every month.
True, my estimate for tokens may have been a bit low. Assuming a 7 hour school day where someone talks at 5 tokens/sec you’d encounter about 120k tokens. You’re off by 3 orders of magnitude on your energy consumption though; 1 watt-hour is 0.86 food Calories (kcal).
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I have been shouting this for years. Turing and Minsky were pretty up front about this when they dropped this line of research in like 1952, even lovelace predicted this would be bullshit back before the first computer had been built.
The fact nothing got optimized, and it still didn’t collapse, after deepseek? kind of gave the whole game away. there’s something else going on here. this isn’t about the technology, because there is no meaningful technology here.
I have been called a killjoy luddite by reddit-brained morons almost every time.
What’re you talking about? What happened in 1952?
I have to disagree, I don’t think it’s meaningless. I think that’s unfair. But it certainly is overhyped. Maybe just a semantic difference?
Companies aren’t investing to achieve AGI as far as I’m aware, that’s not the end game so I this title is misinformation. Even if AGI was achieved it’d be a happy accident, not the goal.
The goal of all these investments is to convince businesses to replace their employees with AI to the maximum extent possible. They want that payroll money.
The other goal is to cut out all third party websites from advertising revenue. If people only get information through Meta or Google or whatever, they get to control what’s presented. If people just take their AI results at face value and don’t actually click through to other websites, they stay in the ecosystem these corporations control. They get to sell access to the public, even more so than they do now.
Why didn’t you drop the quotes from Turing, Minsky, and Lovelace?
because finding the specific stuff they said, which was in lovelace’s case very broad/vague, and in turing+minsky’s cases, far too technical for anyone with sam altman’s dick in their mouth to understand, sounds like actual work. if you’re genuinely curious, you can look up what they had to say. if you’re just here to argue for this shit, you’re not worth the effort.
There are some nice things I have done with AI tools, but I do have to wonder if the amount of money poured into it justifies the result.
The problem is that those companies are monopolies and can raise prices indefinitely to pursue this shitty dream because they got governments in their pockets. Because gov are cloud / microsoft software dependent - literally every country is on this planet - maybe except China / North Korea and Russia. They can like raise prices 10 times in next 10 years and don’t give a fuck. Spend 1 trillion on AI and say we’re near over and over again and literally nobody can stop them right now.
IBM used to controll the hardware as well, what’s the moat?
How many governments were using computers back then when IBM was controlling hardware and how many relied on paper and calculators ? The problem is that gov are dependend on companies right now, not companies dependent on governments.
Imagine Apple, Google, Amazon and Microsoft decides to leave EU on Monday. They say we ban all European citizens from all of our services on Monday and we close all of our offices and delete data from all of our datacenters. Good Fucking Luck !
What will happen in Europe on Monday ? Compare it with what would happen if IBM said 50 years ago they are leaving Europe.
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It’s because customers don’t want it or care for it, it’s only the corporations themselves are obsessed with it
Meanwhile a huge chunk of the software industry is now heavily using this “dead end” technology 👀
I work in a pretty massive tech company (think, the type that frequently acquires other smaller ones and absorbs them)
Everyone I know here is using it. A lot.
However my company also has tonnes of dedicated sessions and paid time to instruct it’s employees on how to use it well, and to get good value out of it, abd the pitfalls it can have
So yeah turns out if you teach your employees how to use a tool, they start using it.
I’d say LLMs have made me about 3x as efficient or so at my job.
It’s not that LLMs aren’t useful as they are. The problem is that they won’t stay as they are today, because they are too expensive. There are two ways for this to go (or an eventual combination of both:
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Investors believe LLMs are going to get better and they keep pouring money into “AI” companies, allowing them to operate at a loss for longer That’s tied to the promise of an actual “intelligence” emerging out of a statistical model.
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Investments stop pouring in, the bubble bursts and companies need to make money out of LLMs in their current state. To do that, they need to massively cut costs and monetize. I believe that’s called enshttificarion.
You skipped possibility 3, which is actively happening ing:
Advancements in tech enable us to produce results at a much much cheaper cost
Which us happening with diffusion style LLMs that simultaneously cost less to train, cost less to run, but also produce both faster abd better quality outputs.
That’s a big part people forget about AI: it’s a feedback loop of improvement as soon as you can start using AI to develop AI
And we are past that mark now, most developers have easy access to AI as a tool to improve their performance, and AI is made by… software developers
So you get this loop where as we make better and better AIs, we get better and better at making AIs with the AIs…
It’s incredibly likely the new diffusion AI systems were built with AI assisting in the process, enabling them to make a whole new tech innovation much faster and easier.
We are now in the uptick of the singularity, and have been for about a year now.
Same goes for hardware, it’s very likely now that mvidia has AI incorporating into their production process, using it for micro optimizations in its architectures and designs.
And then those same optimized gpus turn around and get used to train and run even better AIs…
In 5-10 years we will look back on 2024 as the start of a very wild ride.
Remember we are just now in the “computers that take up entire warehouses” step of the tech.
Remember that in the 80s, a “computer” cost a fortune, took tonnes of resources, multiple people to run it, took up an entire room, was slow as hell, and could only do basic stuff.
But now 40 years later they fit in our pockets and are (non hyoerbole) billions of times faster.
I think by 2035 we will be looking at AI as something mass produced for consumers to just go in their homes, you go to best buy and compare different AI boxes to pick which one you are gonna get for your home.
We are still at the stage of people in the 80s looking at computers and pondering “why would someone even need to use this, why would someone put one in their house, let alone their pocket”
I remember having this optimism around tech in my late twenties.
I want to believe that commoditization of AI will happen as you describe, with AI made by devs for devs. So far what I see is “developer productivity is now up and 1 dev can do the work of 3? Good, fire 2 devs out of 3. Or you know what? Make it 5 out of 6, because the remaining ones should get used to working 60 hours/week.”
All that increased dev capacity needs to translate into new useful products. Right now the “new useful product” that all energies are poured into is… AI itself. Or even worse, shoehorning “AI-powered” features in all existing product, whether it makes sense or not (welcome, AI features in MS Notepad!). Once this masturbatory stage is over and the dust settles, I’m pretty confident that something new and useful will remain but for now the level of hype is tremendous!
Good, fire 2 devs out of 3.
Companies that do this will fail.
Successful companies respond to this by hiring more developers.
Consider the taxi cab driver:
With the invention if the automobile, cab drivers could do their job way faster and way cheaper.
Did companies fire drivers in response? God no. They hired more
Why?
Because they became more affordable, less wealthy clients could now afford their services which means demand went way way up
If you can do your work for half the cost, usually demand goes up by way more than x2 because as you go down in wealth levels of target demographics, your pool of clients exponentially grows
If I go from “it costs me 100k to make you a website” to “it costs me 50k to make you a website” my pool of possible clients more than doubles
Which means… you need to hire more devs asap to start matching this newfound level of demand
If you fire devs when your demand is about to skyrocket, you fucked up bad lol
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I think the human in the loop currently needs to know what the LLM produced or checked, but they’ll get better.
For sure, much like how a cab driver has to know how to drive a cab.
AI is absolutely a “garbage in, garbage out” tool. Just having it doesn’t automatically make you good at your job.
The difference in someone who can weild it well vs someone who has no idea what they are doing is palpable.
Pump and dump. That’s how the rich get richer.
Current big tech is going to keeping pushing limits and have SM influencers/youtubers market and their consumers picking up the R&D bill. Emotionally I want to say stop innovating but really cut your speed by 75%. We are going to witness an era of optimization and efficiency. Most users just need a Pi 5 16gb, Intel NUC or an Apple air base models. Those are easy 7-10 year computers. No need to rush and get latest and greatest. I’m talking about everything computing in general. One point gaming,more people are waking up realizing they don’t need every new GPU, studios are burnt out, IPs are dying due to no lingering core base to keep franchise up float and consumers can’t keep opening their wallets. Hence studios like square enix going to start support all platforms and not do late stage capitalism with going with their own launcher with a store. It’s over.
I used to support an IVA cluster. Now the only thing I use AI for is voice controls to set timers on my phone.
That’s what I did on my Samsung galaxy S5 a decade ago .
I use chatgpt daily in my business. But I use it more as a guide then a real replacement.
