Listen, people from the former Soviet bloc, we get it, you were traumatized. But you can’t just blanketly force your bad experience on the rest of us. In much of the world, the polarity of your experience was reversed. Communists were (and are) the people arguing for democracy for human rights and for liberty. And they were the people persecuted and jailed and tortured for this. Joke all you like, but it’s just simply historical fact in places ranging from Spain and Greece to like Indonesia and Nepal. And in those places, the conflation of communism and Nazism as “totalitarianism” is just obscene.
In France in particular, I mean look at the tricolour: socialist ideas are part of what being French is. And this fascist mayor is doing something obscene, essentially lumping the collaborationists and the pétainistes together with the people who fought against them for a free french people.
Yes, your experiences are valid, but they are not the only ones that are valid.
Listen, people from the former Soviet bloc,
I’m confused who you’re addressing your comment to. The article is about a French town. That’s not the former soviet bloc.
That’s entirely where the perspective comes from, even if it’s second-hand, since most other people don’t have direct experience living in a communist society.
Or Nazi society for that matter, but got the most part we have consensus on that one being universally awful.
The most rabid anticommunists online tend to be people from eastern Europe or immigrants (or their descendents) from there
You got kicked in a head by a horse? Your “argument” is equal to saying “Nazis werent all bad, they build highways.” Shame on you.
No it’s not the same. I’m not saying communists built stuff. I’m saying communists fought and got persecuted for democracy and human rights. This is actually historically true in places like the ones I mention in my post, places like Greece, Chile, Indonesia, etc. Show me one fucking place in the world where Nazis/fascists fought for democracy and human rights. I’ll wait.
Communist never fought for democracy but for communism. The stuff you are mentioning was the same stuff NSDAP fought four because it was socialist as well. You are unaducated idiot supporting murderous regime. You are ommiting milions of people who died as direct result of communism either as enemy of the regime or in famine. In my country it is a crime to deny the crimes of nazi and communist regimes on the same level, because they are equally dangerous and are equally horrible. Again, shame on you, go masturbate over Marx, Lenin and Mao somewhere else.
I’m not denying the crimes of communist regimes. See my first post. Millions suffered under them, and that pain deserves full recognition. Those experiences are valid.
But my point wasn’t “Stalin good.” My point was that in places like Greece, Spain, Chile, Indonesia, and others, communists were the ones who resisted fascists, fought for democracy, and were jailed or killed for it. That’s a historical fact, whether you like it or not.
Nazis never fought for democracy, ever. That is also historical fact.
And that’s the difference. Saying that Nazis were socialists is a tired talking point that is false and debunked.
If you want to argue history, bring evidence. If you just want to throw insults, then you’re not debating, you’re venting. Go vent elsewhere.
Ok and was the USSR democratic?
For like 10 minutes in the beginning.
It had democratic aspects, but overall it wasn’t really democratic.
You educated and do not praise us straight to gulag!
No, it also wasn’t communist so not sure what’s your point.
Despite strong opposition from left-wing representatives, Frédéric Masquelier, the mayor of Saint-Raphaël on the French Riviera, unveiled France’s first monument to the “victims of communism” on Saturday, August 23. Masquelier, a member of the right-wing party Les Républicains, said, “Nazism and communism (…) are two sides of the same tragic coin.” The monument depicts a man pushing back two massive blocks and was placed next to a memorial dedicated to the martyrs of the Resistance, many of whom were communists.
Other than the obvious “mayor is a fascist” part, why the fuck does a French town need a monument for “victims of communism”? Communist Russia and China were very brutal, but what exactly did they do that directly affected France? Surely the monument is not for the handful of French communists who lived in the USSR and were victims of various purges.
So they should not stand up against Israel (for example)?
Empathy. That’s why.
Big difference between standing up against oppression and erecting monuments. I guarantee that this town doesn’t have a growing collection of monuments dedicated to victims of oppression around the world and doesn’t plan to, either.
I disagree with the monument itself, but to also remember the victims of the socialist dictatorships (Holodomor, big leap forward, red Khmer, and many others) is not a bad thing. And why there? Because the places where it happened might not want to remember them, e.g. look at Russia and how it handles it Soviet Union past.
While it’s on the fascist side instead of the socialist, Berlin for example has a monument to the forced prostitution during Japanese colonialism. And Germany was not involved there either, but it’s still worthwhile to remember it, since Japan tries to hide it.
Berlin is like 50 times larger than that French town, though - it’s not completely absurd for Berlin to have an entire collection of such monuments, and on top of that Germany was allied with Japan during WW2 and thus had at least some involvement in it.
That downvote wasn’t me, BTW.
if communism = facism then facism = communism. Does that sound even remotely sane? Dumb monument. Though frankly i cant even understand how anyone would get something like that from a wireframe guy telling about huge fish it almost caught.
On a historical aspect, it does sound a bit sane. Both were used to justify similar regimes that strangled the people.
Communism can be seen as fascism by lucky liberals who dont understand we share this earth and have responsibilities to our neighbor. Communism ‘removes’ autonomy by making it a group effort and reducing the power of money which lets people have a degree of separation from the work and people.
Not that I agree, but people see communism as the real world attempts and not the philosophy. This is very apparent when you realize those anti communism in America tend to be Christian.
Jesus being a dude who provided free health care, food, and assistance to his neighbor. Just communist philosophy to the max. However they prefer the philosophy that he died so that we can keep sinning and would rather kill their brother than share the bread.
its just that i cant see how fasicm can be considered communism. Communist regime can also be facist but its crazy to just make them mean the same thing. Its like saying nazi germany was communist.
You say you can’t see how and then explain exactly how.
They definitely do not mean the same thing that’s the same thing that happened to Nazis. They just were the biggest example of fascists on the world stage. A concept older than the Nazis. When Nazi is really more an ideology of hate wearing a façade.
The same party that is used to chastise ‘socialist’ beliefs when it wasn’t truly socialist. Words evolve and change, it’s why spreading a message is better than spreading a term. Whether or not you are right mattrrs very little when the person listening understands something different.
Help your neighbor and let them not go hungry - least we can do is spread our beliefs through our acts. I wish to raise the bottom line, and this will come at the detriment of my time, labor, and whatnot. This is why those with means would rather not sacrifice their comfort. Even when it’s just money.
I consider facism to be more like something that corrupts and worms its way into everything. As you said, its older thing than the nazis. Its like somekind of ideological disease.
Oh absolutely, it’s power which allows laziness and comforts. In communism those in office are not the labor force ans can control the flow of money. Comfort.
Same issues arise with capitalism since money allows these sames comfort and once you’re rich enough they won’t let you be poor again.
Its also something that has to be dealt with or it will destroy humanity eventually, or turn it into something so horrible that destruction might be preferred. Any system we come up with will get corrupted by it if its allowed to exist.
Though its so damn annoyingly hard to eradicate since by doing so you kind of become it yourself, at least if you try to do it the easy way. But to get rid of it in better way relies on people being able / wanting to change or at least not opposing the change in such way it causes more problems.
The difficult truth, compassion and empathy is the only way to win. In turn needing something from everyone. Not everyone understands and in doing so they take with them others.
This thread feels like i just sat down for some coffee and a cigarette at a corner cafe on a cool April morning in Paris, 1871…
“…two sides of the same tragic coin.”
Well that’s just a bad metaphor. Now I dislike this mayor for two reasons.
Never would have thought there are so many supporters of oppressive regimes here on lemmy.
Oh, silly French. Everybody knows communism was better… at killing and oppressing people.
Communisme has not cause death in France like it did in the Soviet Union. Communist movement after World War II has largely contributed to improve the working conditions with reforms that are still fundamental workers rights in France today: minimum 2 weeks of paid holidays per year, 40 and then 35 hours per week standard work time, minimum wage, workers unions, and more. Nazis and the Vichy regim, on the other hand, are directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of death, deportation to the elimination camps, some of these camps on the French territory. Equating both is factually wrong and a revision of history as a political stunt.
There was no comunist government in France so it is absolutely irrelevant.
There was elected communist representative in the parlement, and communiste lead workers unions. They weighed on the legislative and executive powers. There was communiste mayors having local influence. Overall they made a difference as a part of a fairly diverse and fairly democratic system back then. This system is in danger today, when the majority in parlement and popular protests and petitions are being completely ignored by the government in place, and there isn’t much criticism from the mainstream media.
They’re obviously not equal in their ideology and what kinds of shit they promote… but they are both harmful to civilization.
As a detail, Les Républicains is France’s “liberal conservatist”[0] center-right party. Not a Russian psyop party like Le Pen’s Rassemblement national.
Calling les Républicains centre-right is simply incorrect, when their president publicly said “the rule of law is not sacred” and jokingly that he is “waiting to get absolute power”. Half of them have already rallied to RN directly and the remaining are just pushing for the same brutal policies and systemic racism. They are extrem-right if not fascists.
RPR and UDF could be called somewhat center-right party. Since UMP, and Sarkozy and his outlaw crew, republicans have been closer and closer to far-right (and, on the bright side, jail)
The two most murderous political movements of the twentieth century? Yeah they can both burn in hell.
