Has anyone done the ‘US invades itself’ joke yet?
The Republican party, I guess.
What happened to the last 2.5t lithium deposit? Also these deposits are just the tech to extract ever smaller amounts of valuable material from waste material right? Like oh this land has 0.0001% lithum percent but now that is profitable because advances in valuables extraction, if we crator this region.
China isn’t special to have high concentration deposits they are special because no one is going to stop them from digging up hundreds of square/km of Earth in Africa.
China’s special for controlling a very high proportion of the processing infrastructure that converts the lithium ore to batteries, rather than the extraction. There are a bunch of places that have substantial known lithium reserves.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/lithium-reserves-by-country
Country Lithium Reserves 2024 (MT) Chile 9.3M Australia 7M Argentina 4M China 3M United States 1.8M Canada 1.2M Zimbabwe 480K Brazil 390K Portugal 60K Namibia 14K Total 27.2M Australia does the most extraction:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/lithium-production-by-country
Dibs
This guy called it and I trust him more than any other corporate entity to extract it without harming the ecosystem, sooo…
I was shocked nobody had called it, yet! Unexpectedly big day for me.
What happened to Drill baby drill?!
The oil companies weren’t interested in increasing supply and thus having to lower their prices.
BEVs and energy storage needs to move on to safer battery systems. Lithium batteries have killed a lot of people already.
Lithium batteries have killed a lot of people already.
12,000 people a year die in coal mining accidents.
about 120 people a year in oil drilling.
There are different types of lithium batteries. LFP never killed anyone.
LPF is the safest lithium ion battery but still less safe, less performant and more expensive than CATL’s sodium-ion battery.
less performant
Well this is a matter of how you define “performant”.
It’s got lower energy density, which is generally considered a critical measure.
CATL sodium ion doesn’t have less energy density than LPF batteries.
It also works well at higher and lower temperatures than all lithium ion batteries. Charges faster. Safer than the safest LPF batteries. Materials are also abundant and inexpensive everywhere in the world.
Then why isn’t everyone doing it? CATL not wanting to share?
Patents. CATL leads the world in battery R&D, while US industry leads the world in executive compensation.
Current sodium chemistries have a kinda shitty voltage curve. I expect it will get better, but right now a LOT of the power delivery happens with voltages below 3 volts. LFP batteries deliver most of their power at higher voltages which lets you use thinner conductors and cheaper/more efficient electronics.
Again, not saying that it’s necessarily an inherent flaw in sodium chemistries, just that the current generation that people can access and test right now is unsuitable for some tasks.
I think I’ll need a citation, from what I can find, the LFP chemistry still is more dense than CATL sodium, which makes sense because, well, the physics are what they are, sodium is about three times more massive than lithium. The best argument I could see on this point is debating whether there’s a space in the market between sodium and NMC for LFP (if you are already compromising on density, then what’s another further compromise to get the other qualities you mention for sodium).
LFP more energy dense, last longer (by a lot) and have lower self-discharge. Sodium are cheaper and work better in cold temps, but add significant weight to cars, which makes this a less efficient application.
I suggest people not learn science by press releases.
add significant weight to cars
I think Americans liking giant cars are a bigger issue with that than the weight of the batteries themselves.
CATL claim 10,000 cycles for their sodium battery which is way more than your article. Is selectscience.net a trusted source? CATL at least makes batteries in the real world but the burden of proof is on them this year.
LPF is the safest lithium ion battery but still less safe, less performant
25% more density
100% more battery life
Lower self discharge rates
So has oil. Probably far more than lithium ever will.
CATL has a sodium ion battery car coming out this year. Literally zero risk of thermal runaway, more resilient in extreme high and low temperatures and many more life cycles than lithium ion at a lower cost.
America is falling behind in every possible metric.
America is falling behind in every possible metric.
So that’s why they don’t use metric system?
America is falling behind hand over foot!
I was forced to bring in the imperial system back with its idiotic arbitrary measures of feets, yards, miles, pints and ounces.
The Oregon Chapter of the Sierra Club indicates they support cleaner energy but believe drilling must not come at the expense of fragile habitats.
Foreign lithium isn’t magic, zero-footprint lithium. We are a major consumer of lithium, and will probably increase if we’re going to move to BEVs. If we’re going to consume it, it only seems fair to the rest of the world to have some of the footprint in our own territory.
Here’s the studyin Minerals. I’ll caution that it’s an MDPI journal, but it’s better than Earth.com’s content mill dogshit.
Honest question: What’s wrong with MDPI? I’ve published in one of them, and noted that they (MDPI) have been spamming for more ever since, but other than that I haven’t heard of any issue with them.
If you are a researcher, you shouldn’t have to ask someone for information that is readily available and particularly for that which you should already have intimate knowledge of.
- Multi-disciplinary = inexpert
- Review process = payment please
- some actual reputable journals and scientific bodies no longer use it due to previous 2 points
Being a researcher, I know that the most efficient way to get more knowledge about a claim can be to ask the person making the claim. Being a lemmy-user, I recognise the value of asking the question openly so that others can read the response. I really don’t understand why you would try to make that point (in a derogatory way nonetheless …) of course I could check this myself, that’s easy. I decided to ask because
a) You might have specific reasons for claiming what you did that could be different from, or more specific than, the myriad of reasons that could show up in a search.
b) I wanted to contribute here by opening for a pleasant conversation about publishing practice.
With that said: I’m kind of surprised these points would be applied to the publisher as a whole. The fact that the publisher is multi-disciplinary doesn’t in my eyes imply that the individual journals are “inexpert” (they can still be confined to a niche). The review process is also typically run by the individual journal, so I’m a bit surprised that a blanket description of “crappy review” is applied to a publisher as a whole.
There’s nothing to discuss. You are clearly biased due to the motivation to defend the publishing body for your research.
Expert scientific bodies all over the globe, including China , Europe , had or have strong criticisms of the MDPI and for very good reasons.
It’s a paper mill where for a fee you can get published in a quarter of the time and work. Yes, the individual journals are the source of the problem but that MDPI constantly includes their crap taints the lot.
There’s nothing to discuss.
I have plenty of grievances with publishing practices that it could be nice to both discuss with peers, and discuss online on a forum where people outside the science community can both learn about what’s going on in the community and come with input from outside.
You are clearly biased due to the motivation to defend the publishing body for your research.
I’ve literally published one article in an MDPI-journal, and have exactly zero motivation to defend that journal. My work stands on its own feet, regardless where it’s been published. I haven’t even defended the publisher or the journal in my comments, so I don’t see how you can conclude that I’m motivated to do so.
Expert scientific bodies all over the globe, including China , Europe , had or have strong criticisms of the MDPI and for very good reasons.
This is what I asked you to elaborate on. Not because I think you’re wrong or have any need to prove you wrong, but because I wanted to open for a discussion around publishing practice and bad journals/publishers.
You seem to have concluded a priori that I disagree with you, and then you’re attacking me based on that. I really can’t fathom why you would do that. This could have been a pleasant conversation that both myself and others reading these comments could learn and benefit from, but you decided to make it about attacking my integrity and qualifications as a researcher.
Yes, we should all avoid discussion with humans at all costs, and of course already know everything anyway.
Imagine not knowing something and asking a human for more information? Ew
MDPI is classified as a predatory publisher.
Thanks, I hadn’t caught that!
Beall also claimed that MDPI used email spam to solicit manuscripts
I can confirm - this is what I’ve been experiencing after publishing with them once.
In August 2018, 10 senior editors (including the editor-in-chief) of the journal Nutrients resigned, alleging that MDPI forced the replacement of the editor-in-chief because of his high editorial standards and for resisting pressure to “accept manuscripts of mediocre quality and importance.”
Yep, this is really bad, and something I definitely should have known.
(Edit: In my defence, I was relatively inexperienced at the time, and was recommended to publish in a special issue there by a (very) senior researcher that I know well and have every reason to trust. They definitely should have known better, and I’ve since learned to not trust the judgement of your seniors, even when it seems reasonable at first sight to do so.)
MDPI even asked Jeffrey Beall, the author of Beall’s list of predatory publishers, to edit a Special Issue in a field that is not his own.
Yea, I’m never publishing with these guys again. I probably wouldn’t have anyway, because the email-spam has been so annoying, but now I definitely won’t.
For anyone interested in predatory publishing practices, the link is a pretty good and in-depth read.
Civil war coming!
Trump: “So the oil is under the lithium? How does this work?”
It’s more like his cronies will claim it’s under federal jurisdiction then sell all rights to one of trump’s sons for a button.
Time for the US military to enter and bring them democracy. Wait…
It hurt itself in its confusion!
Always has been
I mean, elections are right around the corner. The US military will be deployed, but it won’t be for the promotion of democracy.
LOL
Liberal: my electric car is so clean bro, it uses tons of lithium but that’s mined somewhere else, so it’s okay.
Geologist: Lithium deposit in your backyard.
Liberal: Not in my backyard.
Lithium is reusable like aluminum. Even if we stayed lithium batteries forever it’s fine since we wouldn’t have to mine much anymore. Most aluminum is recycled.
Assuming we keep using lithium for cars batteries, the day 90%+ of all new car batteries are recycled lithium will be a pretty cool moment. Decades away though.
They are literally already recycling EV batteries.
I know. To have 90% of new vehicles use recycled lithium requires 10s of millions of cars being old enough to be recycled to cover the 10s of millions of new cars being built that year.
Its decades away.
Lithium is not the most abundant part of a lithium ion battery, despite the name. It is very important but it is also very reusable. It can even, theoretically, be recycled. It will never be equivalent to oil. There’s just not the same incentive to start wars over the thing.
That’s true for right wingers. They’ll tell you “drill, baby, drill” but then they complain when you do it in their backyard instead of the middle east or a black neighborhood.
Exactly, and they should be held to the same standard too. If you’re going to laugh at one side for saying something hypocritical, you should also laugh at the other side for saying something hypocritical as well.
There is no red, there is no blue, there is the state, and it hates you.
There is no red, there is no blue, there is the state, and it hates you.
Saving this for my next Valentine poem 😄
Sounds like america could use some freedom
Bring us some democracy while you’re at it.
Sounds like it’s time to bring the U.S some Freedom! 😎🪖🕊️
Lithium isn’t quite like gold. It is not rare at all. The news isn’t that it is there, the news is that someone has found a place where it is relatively easy to dig, and lots of it.
In only a few years, most batteries will be made without lithium anyway.
More likely that most batteries are made from lithium recycled from old batteries rather than mined lithium.
Would be hilarious if China figured out efficient electrolysis and powered all their stuff using hydrogen but our huge and inefficient data centers needed all of our fresh water.
Hilarious. 😒
if China figured out efficient electrolysis and powered all their stuff using hydrogen
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_26_1004
North sea windmills will be generating hydrogen from wind electricity.
In only a few years, most batteries will be made without lithium anyway.
Citation needed.
Sodium-ion and maaaaybe iron are promising, with sodium-ion making the most headway.
https://batterycouncil.org/battery-facts-and-applications/about-sodium-batteries/
Not quite widely commercially available yet, but I wouldn’t invest heavily in lithium is it was me.
Ehh… Lithium batteries are going to be around for quite a while even if sodium ion batteries take off. It’s just more energy dense than sodium ion, so it’s always going to be better for things like portable electronics.
Sodium ion might take over the market for heavier batteries like stationary power banks.
Sure, not saying they’re going away, just that investment in the new option would be how I would spend my money.
Consult a periodic table. Lithium will always out perform sodium. Sodium batteries only exist because lithium costs more, but these large deposits are being found worldwide every few months and lithium will drop in price as a commodity. At some point, recycling will require much less new lithium to be mined.
Sodium is better in the more important ways than lithium.
Wood is cheaper than steel. Which apparently is the most important way to be better in. But I wouldn’t build a skyscraper out of it.
Saying that energy density is not important in energy storage technology is as stupid as saying that material strength is not important in building materials.
You know there are skyscrapers built out of wood, right? And they’re kind of awesome.
I searched for “tallest wooden building” there actually is a list in wikipedia of the tallest buildings.
The tallest of the list is not even a building, it’s a radio tower. At ~110m.
The closest city to me that has a skyscraper has a single skyscraper, and it is >150m tall.
I would not build a skyscraper out of wood.
in the more important ways
This is HIGHLY dependent on use case
CATL claims an energy density near Li-ion with a definite advantage on cold and hot weather environments, no thermal runaway and 10,000 cycles. Also, it’s supposed to cost less because materials are much cheaper.
175Wh/kg very
Doubt (x)
Also, it’s supposed to cost less because materials are much cheaper.
Lithium is currently in a temporary dip in prices. It’s going to go back up
Either state WTF you are talking about or find a better way to waste people’s time.
I wrote it on other comments. I’m not here to summarize the internet for you.
I’m not here to summarize the internet for you.
Fair, but how about you instead justify your point? That seems like a more reasonable ask.
I wrote it on other comments.
I’m not here to aggregate your content for you.
A periodic table doesnt dictate marginal rate of return on mining the element.
Consult a periodic table on which element conducts electricity best and then explain why copper is the most commonly used metal for wires.
Have you not been paying attention to the development of sodium batteries? They are already surpassing LithIon batteries in energy density and cost.
Cost, yes, energy density, very much no.
So good for grid storage, bad for vehicles?
Not necessarily bad for cars. Some vehicles can use just sodium batteries. Some companies are looking at making battery packs with mixed cell types in different ratios to get a best of both worlds for their use case. Sodium sucks for personal electronics though
Yes. Chinese manufacturers are using sodium batteries in some low-range cheap city-cars, too. But fundamentally there is less energy storage in a charged sodium atom than a charged lithium atom so it seems sodium batteries must always be bigger and heavier than equivalent-capacity lithium batteries.
Not exactly, they work better in cold temps for northern countries.
That doesn’t stop sodium batteries from being fundamentally bigger and heavier than lithium batteries for the same capacity. That just means the tradeoff can be more worth it in some regions
But fundamentally there is less energy storage in a charged sodium atom than a charged lithium atom so it seems sodium batteries must always be bigger and heavier than equivalent-capacity lithium batteries.
Well the battery chemistry will always include much more than just the loose charge carrier of Na+ or Li+ or whatever cation floating around. It’s always a suitable cathode material made from other elements, too. Lithium ion batteries in cars today have cathodes mostly of high performance lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxides (NMC) or cheaper/more stable lithium iron phosphate (LFP).
The dominant sodium ion chemistry hitting mass production now uses Prussian Blue Analogues for the cathode (made from a 3d matrix out of sodium, plus a metal like iron/manganese/nickel, plus cyanide made from carbon and nitrogen).
Plus even separately from the raw chemistry of the battery, built in mechanisms for durability or longevity or charge cycles or thermal management or safety or other material properties may change the overall weight of the battery for any particular performance characteristics.
In the end, the performance of the entire battery is what matters, and lithium’s head start in less weight per cation may one day be overcome if the overall materials involved can be lighter in some as-yet commercialized sodium ion chemistry.
Yes you may quote me, if you really need it.
Or leave it. For reasonable people, it is obvious anyway.
I already quoted you. I don’t need your permission to do it.
If you’re not gonna even try to defend your position you’re just spreading misinformation.
LMAO
In only a few years, most batteries will be made without lithium anyway.
Really depends on the use case. Grid-scale storage? Yeah, there’s better chemistries for that. Cars? We’re probably going to see a mix of chemistries in the same battery packs to tailor use case. In personal electronics? No, lithium will remain king
Why is it never in MY yard???
Just install an industrial military complex in your backyard, then use it to extract lithium or oil from all the sources. Its a tried and tested method.
You own the mineral rights of your backyard?
I’d like to say yes, but I’m not going to check. Too much effort to look through all my documents.
Let me give you some bad news: that’s no way in hell
Simple trick to claim the mineral rights of your own backyard. You just need to flip own yard and house upside down! Then the minerals are not under your yard but above it! Checkmate lawyers.
Of course, you’ll also need to sign a writ of mineralis claimies with your signature written in a patriotic crossword. Then include a stamp of George Washington where you have drew him a sensible toupee. Make sure to use red ink or the blood of goblin to draw the toupee, goblin preferred.
Have you tried planting greener grass?
I would if I could buy a house. 40k in the bank. Good credit. 7 years at my current job. Still can’t get a 155k house.
The 75k townhouse won’t sell, and won’t tell me why. Been trying to buy a house for 5 years. Now I’m being told I need to wait another year.
So this past month I’ve just given up. Nothing matters.
As someone who has 30k in the bank and qualified for multiple 350k loans with the lenders implying I’d be good for more, this mames no sense.
As someone who has 30k in the bank and qualified for multiple 350k loans
Don’t trust those lenders. They want you in more debt than you should take on because it makes them more money
They’re reputable local credit unions, not predatory lenders, and 30k is more than a 5% down payment, even after closing costs.
I suppose the unknown here is income, as in my current position making 100kUSD/yr, I’d have absolutely no problem making payments on a 20 year or even a 15 year loan, even if I do end up with a house near the top of my budget, which I’d rather stay well under of course. That said, A $150k house seems like it’d be no problem for that commenter based on their savings making up a >20% down payment.
You’re saying you don’t qualify for a mortgage?
Uhhh what? You should easily be able to get a house with that much down. There’s something you’re not telling us.
Agreed. I bought a $300k house with half that guys down-payment. I kicked myself because I easily could have bought sooner and got much more house for my money.
and got much more house for my money.
And have way more debt as well
If it makes you feel better, I’m 100k in the hole on the one I bought in 2021, and can’t even afford to sell it.
Where in the US is there a 155k house??
