I’ll upgrade when Windows 12 comes out … is what I would say but I’ve already switched to Linux.
quietly
This is for the ESU version, not the regular one. I think this should be mentionned in the title.
There is also aspect of hardware not having TPM 2. Which turns plenty of good hardware to junk if you stay with windows.
Iirc there are some versions of windows 11 without the TPM check
There is a way to force the install. I did it on two of my machines. I should have stayed on 10
Which ones?
It’s like XP all over again.
God’s Perfect OS
Still using Windows 10, but after testing out Linux on the side last year I’ve come to the conclusion it’s ready. Other than anti-cheat being in the shitter once Win 10 is officially dropped for good by games I’m moving over to Arch.
Windows decided to delete all my documents and files 2 weeks ago. Even though I removed them from one drive, windows put them all back in. So when their one drive failed. I lost everything. Like every icon on my desktop too. Thank god i had just backed up a couple weeks before so I didn’t lose much.
I was so pissed though that I immediately installed Linux Mint. Haven’t looked back.
It’s all fun and games until you find that one specific thing you can’t live without that requires Windows lol. Hence why I typically have a low profile Windows 10 LTSC virtual machine set up on my Linux machines.
Some anti-cheat software can be run through Steam e.g. Easy anti-cheat.
I’m aware. Just not the majority of them. Either way doesn’t personally matter to me as I mostly play single player games, to which Proton is incredible with that.
Linux only needs to hit a “small but not insignificant size market” for the large publishers to start supporting it. They won’t support it if they lose money doing so, but if it continues to grow eventually they will lose money by not supporting it.
Steam machine should provide another bump, just like steam deck.
And issue is it needs to be a specific platform.
From a game developer’s perspective (who isn’t a pro linux dev or anything), they can support a platform. They support Windows 10. Or Windows 11. They can support Ubuntu. They can support SteamOS.
Linux’s fragmentation has always been an issue in this regard, as they can’t legally support thousands of different possible system configurations.
HOWEVER,
I think supporting Proton + SteamOS would be very reasonable for a dev. That is a specific platform, its codebase can stay unified with the Windows version, and support for that would practically mean effective support in other Linux distros.
And SteamOS by itself is getting big.
Agreed. And truly developers don’t need to actually “support” Linux; mostly they just need to not intentionally block games from working.
and with steam one can play even non-steam games that are “windows only” by adding non-steam game. Proton works for those too.
I’ve been playing The Sims 2 that way lol
not for the ones with the stupider anti cheats
i gave up on R 6 long ago. but basically all other games are playable on linux. i become comfortable living by the moral code of ‘if the game doesnt play on linux it doesnt exist’
That’s just bs, with win11 at over 70% vs 12% win10.
Sorry, but this sounds like its half bs.
It probably has less to do with “rejecting” or anything to do with RAM, and more likely to do with all the embedded systems running it, or lazy people who don’t upgrade simply because they don’t need to)
I know lots of people running old versions of Mac OS, and it is because their hardware doesn’t support newer, and it works fine for their usecase. They’re not thinking about the hardware in any way.
In fact, in contrast to MacOS, Microsoft actually offers this extended support option, whereas Apple tells its users to get f’ed fairly quickly (yet another reason NOT to use MacOS). Also, Ubuntu offers 15 years now support for LTS (which is crazy).
I use Fedora btw.
Is using an outdated macOS as dangerous as using an outdated version of Windows when the machine is connected to the Internet?
People just target macOS less.
Like Apple was shipping a year old vulnerable version of java at some point, and their update mechanism still sucks compared to everyone
The only reason it’s more secure at this point, is because they’ve made it extremely difficult to install things from outside the app store by default. If anyone else forced you to jump through as many hoops as they do, they’d be hit with an anti trust lawsuit
They’re not thinking about the hardware in any way.
Yeah, but that’s also because Apple doesn’t even inform the user that their version of macOS is EOL. So unless you’re an active follower of Apple news, most people won’t care – at the least simply because they wouldn’t even know. Same thing with Android, etc… whereas Microsoft makes it annoyingly obvious that you’re running an unsupported version.
That’s true… And its not a good thing either,
Does ESU require a Microsoft Account? Because that’s probably the underhanded/shady bit of this whole thing.
“All your data are belong to Microsoft.”
Just reposting something. Most of it probably applies to Windows 10 too.
00000
PSA, for people sticking to Windows:
You can get a reasonable level of privacy by installing Windows Enterprise via RUFUS, which also has options for removing restrictions during installation. Massgravel is used to activate your copy of Windows, the Github also having .ISOs for you to use with RUFUS.
ShutUp10 is a piece of software that goes a step further, allowing you to toggle off many bad things, uninstall Microsoft’s AI, and gives a description of what you are tweaking does. The premium version also automatically applies your settings at all times, reverting Microsoft’s constant tweaking of your settings.
Some people really do say that Linux is too much hassle, but then go through a 30 step process just to have a slightly less bloated piece of spyware.
I mean, it’s good that this option exists. I’m sure it’ll be helpful for people who need Windows 10 for some obscure music software, that doesn’t work well or at all in a virtual machine or through wine. That might really be Windows 10’s singular last use case.
Bud there is a lot of professional software that doesn’t have linux variants. And a lot of people forced to use windows professionally in the workplace
True, but what’s the connection?
Workplaces already usually run Windows Enterprise. And IT departments are practically guaranteed not to let you debloat the OS.
Also, I’m not shaming anyone for using Windows at work. It’s not the employees’ call. I use Windows for work too, because that’s what the company installs on all PCs.
Most orgs will no doubt continue running Windows for a long time to come, due to Active Directory, Intune, and other services. A lot of smaller ones could more or less easily switch to Linux, but I can’t see that happening with medium+ sized ones.
My workplace i’ve got complete “freedom” in my choice of OS and equipment because i own it (the equipment, not the job)
I’m forced to win 11 due to software compatibility, trusted partner requirements and i am not paying for enterprise licensing on a single laptop. Its literally the only machine in the house running win11.
So i use the hacks and the debloater to get around the bullshit. You wanted to know why people do that rather than “just using linux” (which i do, in my personal gear) - you’re literally being handled a use case. Right here, right now.
You skip past the part where lots of software doesn’t work on linux, or there are tons of hoops to jump through to get it to work, and once it’s working it can be broken by an update or upgrade. And no, not everything everyone uses has a 1:1 Linux equivalent.
What works on linux works great. No complaints there.
For some reason I always thought it was massgrave not massgravel.
I think they rebranded. I kinda figured that Massgrave was some sort of holdover of 90’s teen edginess or something.
ohh thank fucking god. I hate windows, but not having a huge portion of the population ready to be infected is a good thing for everyone
Windows11 sucks so bad. I was so excited to learn that Explorer and Notepad were getting tabs & Paint was getting layers. Only to find out that these core features weren’t being updated for users, but in the process of adding slop to the OS. Explorer was the worst, my address bar became an ad. And everything was buggy and broken.
And I know this isn’t just the Linux fanboy line because Microslop themselves had to apologize and walk-back some of the Copilot obnoxiousness.
Still waiting for vertical taskbar support on my work box. They only acknowledged the deficit earlier this year…
For those of you who need a longer offramp to Linux like me and maybe haven’t seen this posted before:
https://massgrave.dev/windows10_eol
You can activate any copy with support at least through 2028.
Came to say this, I’ll add that its is a completely safe and free option.
Benefits over official methods:
- zero cost (don’t pay MS $10)
- no need to format to install LTSC
- no need for a Microsoft account (keep your privacy if you have local only account)
Its FOSS so the entire script can be downloaded and read before you run it if you feel uncomfortable fetching some random script from the web and running it via terminal, as I did.
if you feel uncomfortable fetching some random script from the web and running it via terminal
If you can run some random script in a terminal, you already know everything you need to in order to use Linux.
My laptop is Linux. My desktop is staying win 10 a while longer because it’s compatible with a couple online games I still play every so often.
I love Linux and use it myself, but not everyone is ready to move.
For them, an extended Windows 10 EOL is a nice bridge to give them some more time to plan a main OS install (backup all their data, test replacement apps, etc) as OP said. It’s not about knowledge or capabilities it’s about options, time and many people waiting until they can afford a new PC build to move to linux.
and many people waiting until they can afford a new PC build to move to linux
???
Why would you need a new PC for that?
no need to format to install LTSC
you can modify a text file on an ent/iot installer to allow system and data preserving upgrades on pretty much anything, even ‘home’ or ‘home premium’ editions. i have one here that went 8 pro to 11iot–runs great, and have tested 7hp to 11iot as well. that was the test done before i did the one that ‘mattered’… still using it the test system, too. haven’t bothered to redo it or reload anything else on it yet.
That’s great to hear. I’ve had mixed results with migrating Windows editions in the past, and I believe it’s still an officially unrecommended process due to hiccups that can occur during, and difficulties in diagnosing issues afterwards (can be a bit of a frankenstein as far as libraries WinSXS content, system logs, etc).
normally i’d be against ‘upgrades’, too, especially that different.
but this was a special case and i did have three decades of wading through this shit to pay the rent to work from. a fair bit of reading and a lot of prep ahead of time made the actual upgrade process itself almost completely uneventful. i did find one odd thing after it ran awhile, but it hasn’t resurfaced since.
Oh no it’s windows XP all over again.
Windows xp, window 7, windows 10… There is a pattern. Windows 12, however, I’m not convinced will be any good 🤣. Maybe it will be a code rewrite and an entirely new windows?!
I heard windows 12 will be open source and work easily without an internet connection. They are lowering the system requirements due to improvements in efficiency and elimination of bloat. It’s like a giant apology for how rotten they realize they’ve become.
Just kidding! It requires your ssn to log on and takes money directly out of your bank account each month and tries to fuck your mom.
If you’re too lazy to switch to Linux like me, Windows 10 Enterprise IoT LTSC is supported until 2032 and free to download and permanently license..
i dunno, going linux feels pretty lazy. just watching you all sweat and panic with your workarounds and here i am like …not.
Doing the Lord’s work!
massgrave can activate 3 years ESU on regular Enterprise for people who want things IoT LTSC is missing, like WMR. I’ve got Enterprise alongside Bazzite and when the updates run out I’ll either switch to IoT LTSC or nuke Windows altogether.
Same, I’ve got a headset on WMR and it’s basically trash if I have to update to Win 11.
you guys might be interested in this, then:
Oasis is a Windows 11 driver for SteamVR for VR headsets of the Windows Mixed Reality family, such as the HP Reverb, Samsung Odyssey, Lenovo Explorer, or Dell Visor. This driver does not require the Mixed Reality Portal application and is therefore compatible with the latest versions of Windows 11 (24H2 and future).
https://github.com/mbucchia/Oasis-Driver-for-Windows-Mixed-Reality/wiki
You won’t do this on corporate machines, but converting a Win install into an IoT release and generating a key for it is like a couple of clicks and a reboot.
But, but - the way massgrave is still accessible and not fought against makes you think Microsoft wants the fluctuating users to keep on using their products and ecosystem even if they don’t pay the initial sticker price.
So if it’s at least slightly feasible for your workflow, it’s always better to switch and leave M$ behind.
P.S. I can be wrong, but IoT right now doesn’t shield oneself from installing copilot and other garbage, making this edition not better than others, you still need to debloat it.
P.S. I can be wrong, but IoT right now doesn’t shield oneself from installing copilot and other garbage, making this edition not better than others, you still need to debloat it.
a full year in here, with regular security updates. 11iot is still unmolested by microsoft shenanigans. nothing installed on it i didn’t put on myself, or didn’t come with the stripped-down windows, which isn’t much at all. there’s no store, so all the store-delivered shit is absent.
Might not be a bad idea to start learning on a separate device though, so you’ll be ready when 2032 hits.
(That’s my current setup)
This is my plan. Going to do my first Linux install on my old laptop to learn and then go full Linux once I feel I’ve got a good idea of what I’m doing.
Can’t risk screwing it up as I’m self employed and need everything to work
Most of us (normal people) are on Windows 11 and happy with it. The majority of those that aren’t are holding out due to the hardware requirements. -Shock to conspiracy theorists.
I’m on Windows 11 for work and am not happy about it. They took away my 2-level taskbar, among other regressions.
Thank you MicroSlop Bot 8000. Nice comment
Just dual boot. No need for a separate device.
You are the champ for pointing people this direction but eventually like Adobe they will close the holes.
Yes, but it is pointless like whack a mole.
I’m going to try Steam OS on one of my laptops. See what that’s like.
I suggest that you try Bazzite instead. As of now, SteamOS doesn’t support Nvidia.
I can chime in for Bazzite. It’s imperfect, but I’ve blown up my fair share of aliens and they make playing your games on Linux really easy compared to anything else I’ve used. I can even stream the game from my desktop to a laptop in my bedroom via sunshine/moonlight which Bazzite helps you install as SteamLink doesn’t play nice with Bazzite.
Oh I’m poor my laptop has AMD.
Bazzite also has a better package management system. SteamOS is meant for gaming almost exclusively, whereas Bazzite is meant for both.
After using Bazzite, I’m convinced that image based distros are the future for end users. Need to install an app? Flatpak. Need to install command line? Homebrew.
It all installs in user space. And Flatpak at least uses an effective sandbox system.
Distros that maintain their own package spaces are duplicating a. lot. of work.
The downside of Flatpak is the disk space usage. But that doesn’t matter as much to me as it used to.
Disk space usage isn’t that bad anyway since there’s some deduplication going on.
AMD is better than NVidia anyway
Upvote for Bazzite - the caveat being how much support the distro gets and how long it lives. That said it turned a truly piece of crap all in one hp to something that was fun in about 30 minutes. it’s a good gaming OS but I wouldn’t use it as my daily driver.
I don’t think steamos is a great choice for a general purpose OS…yet
Probably not but maybe I’ll be able to play a game. Old laptop. Old Games. New OS. See what happens.
Both bazzite and CachyOS are built for computers and will likely work better for a laptop than SteamOS. And they both have gaming focused builds. I haven’t tried Bazzite in a while, but CachyOS has easy to understand instructions on how to install their gaming package.
I’ve been using Linux since it was a diskette install (Slackware). I’ve used all main Linux flavors over the years, and for the last few years I’ve lived in Mint, because lazy. I’m now on CachyOS. It fucking rocks. Like wow level.
I started with Ubuntu version 10.10 and currently my computer runs Linux Mint Debian 7.
Though I am seriously considering giving NixOS another spin. I gave it a try once, and it didn’t quite work for me, but I think I might try it again. I am getting pretty convinced that immutability is the future because then the operating system developer can work on the operating system and the user space can focus on the user space. And user space applications can’t do things to the operating system that would screw it up and bork it. I’m primarily thinking of when an application gets uninstalled and then uninstalls some shared library that’s needed by another application and fucks it up.
I know immutable systems and self-contained applications require more disk space, but that’s a worthy sacrifice in my opinion. Disk space is pretty damn cheap.
AI says disk space is no longer to be considered cheap ;)
Appreciate the suggestions, probs check them out afterwards. I just wanna do it for the shits n gigs
Totally understand that. I have tried a bunch of different Linux builds to see what I like. So certainly won’t begrudge your explorations. And I haven’t tried SteamOS on any of my machines because it didn’t have a desktop build when I was last playing around with new builds. CachyOS has been great though. Everything works well on my machine, and its been easy to use as a daily driver.
Can confirm Bazzite is incredibly easy to install, and all my steam games work without any tweaking at all so far except Tropico 6. And I haven’t even tried to fix that.
(Windows was being a dick fuck, and life means I don’t have brainspace right now to fuck around with my laptop, so no-tweaking was the goal. Bazzite has delivered that.)
As someone who is lazy, I find running Linux to be less work than fighting with Windows.
There’s no struggle free OS, every OS has operations and processes that will need more detailed investigation, and hence read as “fighting with the operating system”.
No design is intuitive to everyone, all the time, and in all situations. I’m sure Linux is fine, but let’s be real, you know what I mean.
I’m glad that Linux is more intuitive to you than Windows. Good job finding it, and setting it all up 👍
that’s not really true there’s no struggles normally with an OS like Linux Mint.
Selecting a username and password is within most peoples grasp. Click an icon on the dock and you’re away
The struggle is the apps for most people, where’s Chrome? (when FF is right there on the dock), where’s Photoshop etc etc
Honestly, a lot of desktop environments are designed to feel very similar to Windows. I tried Mint on a laptop and started liking it right away. The setup was put it on a flash drive, and run the installer. It took 20 minutes to nuke Windows.
My OS struggles come from trying to get windows-specific DAWs and CAD Software to work, which will hopefully come around as more people switch to Linux. I have some alternatives that I’m playing with right now.
Fyi, Reaper and Bitwig both have excellent, native Linux support. If you’re willing to re-learn a DAW, both of those are great choices. Reaper is by far the best mixing & mastering DAW out there, IMHO. Bitwig is great for composition and has awesome, intuitive modulation features, as well as great stock plugins and MPE support.
The part that takes energy and effort is making the switch.
I’m really familiar with Linux. I’ve been using it on and off since the days of Slackware. My work computer was Linux-only for several years.
But, even with that, it took weird driver issues with my GPU, combined with the impending death of Windows 10, combined with the ridiculous heavy handed Copilot BS on Windows to finally convince me to switch my main desktop PC to Linux.
It was just the momentum that was so hard to overcome. I knew what worked in Windows, and I knew what didn’t. I had already found and installed all the programs I needed. My settings were all how I liked them. I knew the keyboard shortcuts. With Linux I didn’t know what would work or what wouldn’t. With Linux, there were a lot of things I’d need to install and set up, and I knew that was going to take some effort. But, worst were the unknown unknowns. I didn’t know what was going to cause me problems, and didn’t know if they were things I could resolve in a couple of hours or if they’d take weeks.
I’m glad I made the switch, and the overall maintenance load is much lower than it was in Windows. The frustration factor is 10x better. But, I did have to make a real effort to make the switch. There were a few weeks where it was pretty frustrating.
I hear you on the unknowns. I just picked up a new direct drive racing wheel, and I spent half the night trying to get it to work. The manufacturer doesn’t support Linux, so I have to use Boxflat. The wheel seems to work in there, but it doesn’t show up in my device list under Game Controllers and Steam doesn’t show it as a controller. However, after more research, it seems like that’s all normal and it’s probably the game itself not detecting the wheel due to it being plugged into a USB hub (which isn’t a Linux issue). Sometimes ime learning the OS is fine, and it’s the software that’s the issue. With Windows, it was easy to assume things were fine on the OS side, and it just comes from that familiarity.
How tough was the DAW to get working? FL is basically the thing keeping me on Windows at this point
I haven’t made any recent attempts to get FL Studio working again, but from what I understand, Bottles can set up an install pretty easily. Reinstalling your VSTs can be done through Bottles as well, so it’s one folder containing everything.
Yeah exactly. I set up Zorin OS for my family who are not tech savvy at all. It was a bit different at first but they said they felt much “calmer” using Linux. Modern Windows feels like trying to read an article online or watch a YouTube video without an ad blocker.
Linux you fight a bit when setting it up and then its like clockwork. With windows it’s easy to setup, but then it starts doing weird shit you never asked for and and undoes your changes making more work forever.
Linux isn’t hard to set up anymore
Yeah, it was way less friction than I was expecting. It went smoother than some windows updates do (specifically the ones where they just reset settings to their shitty defaults).
Basic install yes, getting all your favourite apps and network connectivity…well, it’s much better, but still an short term pain.
I dunno, maybe I’ve just had good luck when it comes to hardware compatibility, but networking has always just worked for me. Along with audio and pretty much everything else.
Getting the apps you want installed is the same thing you’d have to go through with a fresh Windows install too. And I think Linux package management is way easier once you do the initial install. So I would argue that Linux is actually better in that regard.
No. Network connectivity just works unless you have some really esoteric hardware. I just installed a USB wifi ax 5400, total overkill for my telco router. CachyOS just took it in stride. Most apps, including many Window apps install painlessly. The moment Linux sees an .exe, it launches wine and installs the app.
Right now it’s mostly “just works” most people use office and internet apps anyway.
I had to plug in ethernet to the wifi drivers updated. Map a nas drive with the correct invocation in /etc/fstab. Getting camilladsp to work in multichannel 5.1 setup, getting my fricken nvidia drivers working, getting star citizen to work (still doesn’t), getting roon to work in bottles, adding the right repos even for various software.
Linux has come a long way. It is mostly consumer grade now, but still has some refinement.
What flavor of Linux?
As someone who just installed bazzite today and fucked around with Mint a couple months ago this is very much true. Kinda reminds me of bashing Windows 98 into doing what I wanted.
I installed Bazzite, and I had a bit of trouble!
… Because I pulled out the USB halfway through the install! Like the world’s biggest dumbass! Couldn’t boot the computer at all! Oh no!
Then I stared at what I’d done for a while, sighed, rebooted and started again.
And it was easy as piss. Bazzite 10/10 for me.
This is part of why I like Mint … it’s like 5 clicks to install
I like Mint. Got two boxes. 1 bazzite, one Debian and one Arch for shitz and giggles.
Mint comes in debian, arch and bazzite?
Uh. No. I have 2 mint boxes. 1 bazzite one debian and one arch… heh.
It comes in Debian … not the others
Mint is wonderful though I am considering switching back to a system with GNOME instead of Cinnamon because the screen reader works better under GNOME.
I am thinking about giving NixOS another shot or at least going with an immutable system, but Mint is a great place to start your Linux journey, and hell, it’s a great place to end your Linux journey if you don’t give a shit about computers and just want the damn thing to work reliably.
Yeah, that’s the thing - I remember installing Slackware 1.0 from floppies back in the day.
These days, I’ve had my enthusiasm for technology crushed out if me, and I just want to get stuff done with as little “computer” in the way as possible
That hasn’t happened for me, but it has shifted from desktop to mobile for me, because, for me, desktop Linux is just about fucking perfect, and I see no need to change it. But, I do very much enjoy playing around with different things like lineage OS, and possibly post-market OS on phones.
I’d say my phone is my primary computing device so it’s what I like to mess with and the laptop is just a system that I need to work whenever I pick it up and therefore it gets Linux installed on it and doesn’t get many changes.
I would say my laptop is more like an appliance similar to my toaster. When I turn on my toaster, I expect it to work. And it’s the same thing with my laptop for the little bit that I need it. And my phone is the device that I mess with, primarily.
Meanwhile, I wouldn’t mess with my phone because I need it for stupid things like banking :-/
Last year I did give Haiku a crack, so I’m not completely out of enthusiasm for OS fiddling … but it’s the exception not the rule
I spent about 2 months on mint with cinnamon, switched to cachy with plasma on my main desktop a few weeks ago and honestly it’s been working a lot better. Still have to poke a few things but overall I’ve got everything I’m regularly using going fine now.
and then its like clockwork
My brother in Christ, what are you talking about? Do you not install any software whatsoever? Do you not have a need to update it? Or maybe all your hardware works out of the box 100% of time? My setup full amd, pretty fresh (am5 + rdna3), but it still a gamble each time I’m launching new game on steam. Will it work out of the box? Will proton-cachyos just bork itself (happened week ago, still not sure what caused it, maybe mangohud)? Will my whole desktop just crash cause of bug in driver that specific to one extension in vulkan? Or maybe I simply won’t be able to see my desktop at all cause amd with LG tv is a bad combination? It’s a shitshow.
Not my experience.
“works on my machine”
Do you not have a need to update it?
It literally does this for you.
It doesn’t, it updates package if you agreed to update. It looks like you misunderstand what I said. I meant that any update can bring issues, it’s not “I installed and it works forever”
I meant that any update can bring issues, it’s not “I installed and it works forever”
I use Bazzite at the moment, and it actually is that. No exaggeration.
And if an update doesn’t work (hasn’t happened to me in the 2 or 3 years I’ve been on Bazzite), ostree means rollbacks are instant and failsafe.
Bazzite also uses topgrade as the backend for its system update utility (just a “ujust” command), and it updates everything including flatpaks and firmware.
So it really is just one click to update everything and it never breaks.
11 iot is also available, and is void of nearly everything people hate about 11. it’s good to 2035.
I have no intentions of going back to Ravenholm anytime soon.
