As Russian aggression continues and Trump’s US threatens NATO, it is even more vital for a unified defence of the continent.
Timothy Garton Ash Professor of European Studies, University of Oxford
Timothy Garton Ash Professor of European Studies, University of Oxford
Last time Germany had a military power, they tried, and partially succeeded, to firmly embed it in Europe.
If anybody wants to know “what’s been taking so long” responses like this are probably the reason.
To be honest, I am glad Germans are arming themselves. I even hope, that if the time comes, they will be determined enough to send their troops east. As a Pole I really hope, this time, they will do it in cooperation with Poland, not with russia.
I’ve got bad news for you. AfD will probably take power, starting in German states this fall…just like the NSDAP did. They are Russian puppets through and through.
If anything the Eastern European states should be afraid of German military spending at this time.
Last time? True, Western Germany was a super powerful military embedded in western Europe. Maybe that’s why the Soviets never attacked.
Image simping so hard for the German state, that you pretend not to understand, what‘s meant by „military power“ and „last time“ and in the next sentence shift towards an attack on the military power that paid with 27 million lives to stop Germany‘s extermination campaign, the last time it was a military power.
Absolutely normal.
I know that you are German. You probably feel deeply ashamed about your family’s history and your great grandparents or great great grandparents and their crimes.
But please don’t put your personal history onto cotemporary Europe.
Please also don’t let it drive you to ignore history of all the millions who died due to Soviet war crimes, violence, starvation.
We’re all against fascism here, darling. You’re not alone. This is not the battle you’re fighting.
I’d suggest to talk for yourself only. And you certainly are not anti-fascist. You don’t even know how stores work, why should any normal working class human trust your Staatsräson takes, that usually are not even based on facts or reality even?
And you keep doing this same attempt of a character assassination based on nothing. It’s a bit embarrassing. And always when your hilarious state narratives are being challenged.
We’ve been talking German military and you keep trying to shift the focus away from the state’s obvious historic path and responsibility, by the use of Red Scare propaganda to shovel blame onto the evil Soviets. The shit you pull is close to denial of German history.
Anything, except accepting critique of the German state.
It is absolutely normal if one is not completely fixated on second world war. And the “last time” Germany had an significant military was not in the 30s and 40s… it was in the 80s, with strong ties to NATO and firmly on the ground of the German constitution.
Aren’t you the one simping for and whitewashing the Bundeswehr in the other thread? Is that the nature of your account now, is that what we can expect from you in the future?
It’s absolutely normal not to exclude the Wehrmacht. But Pip intentionally does exactly that as they’re structurally incapable of formulating anything negative in association with the German state. And you are helping the narrative.
Was the Bundeswehr larger in the cold war era? Sure. Was it a military power? That really depends, how you define that. And you two are intentionally defining it in a very narrow way. The Bundeswehr during the cold war era was not an independent military and strongly integrated into NATO and fully under the boot of the USA. It was that way exactly because of the Nazis.
The qualitative difference now is, that Germany strives to be THE military power of Europe again, with other countries following their lead – that’s a quality obviously more comparable to the Wehrmacht, than the defensive army throughout the cold war era, when Germany wasn’t allowed to have it’s own strong and independent military. Today, the US pulls out of European NATO issues to focus on the indo-pacific and expects Germany to become the leading military power and people like Merz and Wadephul are happily doing that.
To ignore all that and instead naively argue pro rearmament I find despicable. Cheering for a bigger and stronger German military, while every social structure is actively eroded, certainly is not the kind of society I’d want. And is certainly a bad idea to begin with, if we look at the history.
If not utterly condemning the Bundeswehr and highlighting positive things where they are is “simping” for you - yep, that’s me!
Yep, feel free to block me if you don’t want to see opinions conflicting with your own.
This is - at best - a half-truth. Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, it is only natural that it has to shoulder a big part of the European defence. Even with a massive rearmament to reduce the impact of the decreasing US military presence - which is happening all over Europe, mind you - Germany’s role is to be a part in a defensive alliance. If you see any ambition to conquer “Lebensraum” in the east, please feel free to share the evidence.
Na, I won’t block you, I have no trouble confronting your takes. Yes, you are simping, as you are actively trying to spin everything into a positive, even if you need to fall back to anecdotes. “Not utterly condemning” is the childish opposite position of what you are doing, but nobody asked you to do that.
NATO is not the same as Europe (yet). And just because it is happening, doesn’t mean it’s to be supported.
Me too, I believe what the advertisements on TV are telling me.
The leading part, ambitions formulated by the chancellor himself. Do you want to explain, what it is, that is actually being defended? Do you think the history of NATO interventions tells a defensive story?
I see that in Palestine, which Germany is heavily involved in, aligned with and supports on every level, even trying to build more weapons manufacturing of Israeli military industry on German soil (Elbit, Sangerhausen), as well as having a show trial for young activists, that damaged a bit of the genocider’s property (Ulm 5) – the right thing to do, as it’s to stop a genocide. Either way, it’s a sham trial, I suggest to closely follow the (non-mainstream) reporting.
I see it in the sanctioning of German journalists (Dogru), depriving them and their family (mother, wife, kids incl. newborn twins) everything that is needed in order to survive or defend themselves, only because the state didn’t like the effect the reported facts were having on their viewers and readers.
I see it in “Drecksarbeit” commentary and logistical support (Ramstein) in regards to the US/Israel war against Iran, a sovereign country. I see it in the support of the highly repressive state of Ukraine, that is kidnapping their own people in order to throw them into the meat grinder for NATO ambitions. A state that shelled their own population, because they were of Russian ethnicity (Donbas 2014).
I see it in failed car manufacturers shifting towards war product manufacturing, just like in the old times (VW Osnabrück)
The German state is directly involved in the deaths of Ukrainians, Russians, Iranians and Palestinians. But we’ve always had our trouble with Slavic, and since the war on terror with Arab people, wouldn’t you agree?
So, ideologically, morally, the German state is not that far off from that level. Are you asking to only act against injustices, once the army and camps are up and running? Hint: The camps are up and running, they’re at the European borders. And why would anyone support a war machine, anyway? Again, whose defence are we supposed to do that for? It’s surely not ours, as we will be thrown into the meat grinder, if push comes to shove.
But apart from that, just because NATO wants a war with Russia, doesn’t mean we’ll have to wait for Lebensraum fantasies being concocted in the open. Why do you only argue in extremes?
Honestly, thank you for this clarification of your standpoint. I think it is in the best interest of both our blood pressure and the discussion climate in this community if we disengage our communication at this point - as neither of us will be able to convince the other of our viewpoints.
In this spirit i wish you a nice day.
Sad, I thought you were ready to see opinions conflicting with your own, but now, the slightest push and you withdraw. Is that how it’s done in the military, too?
I accept your retreat, have a nice day, too!