Remember to contribute to postmarketOS!
Fucking love postmarketOS. First OS to improve on Maemo on an N900
So, does it mean that degooglized android phones will suffer as well?
This will take effect for google “certified” phones. If you’re using a custom rom with no gapps (including play services) installed, you will most likely be not affected.
If some of your apps rely on play services, i can heavily recommend microg as replacement for it.
Do I have to install microg or graphene or whatever on my Google Pixel before that date or miss the boat?
Have been putting it off.
GrapheneOS has sandboxed play services that you can easily install to make sure apps work. my banking app only works with play store services so I installed them and set them to zero permissions. You can also make a second profile with nothing installed and switch when you need those apps. MicroG has never worked for me on any phone.
They aren’t competitive with Android or iOS phones presently — don’t have the scale of userbase — but there’s only one way that that’s going to change, and that’s people starting to use them.
(“Linux” here as in “GNU/Linux”, as opposed to “the Linux kernel”, which Android phones also use.)
That’s generally true. Personally, I enjoy using a laptop way more than using a mobile device of any kind.
However, modern life is beginning to require mobile apps (Android or iOS). More and more things simply aren’t available as a website or FOSS. You have to have a vanilla mainstream mobile device to do certain things like using your bank account. I really hate that.
Hardware peripherals are another area that really sucks. If you want to enjoy the comforts of modern life, many people just bow down and use one of the two mobile platforms in order to use their smart ring/scale/lights/curtains/heating/car, etc.
Resisting all that is getting increasingly difficult, because there’s so much to resist. On the other hand, resisting is also becoming increasingly appealing as enshittification intensifies.
(“Linux” here as in “GNU/Linux”, as opposed to “the Linux kernel”, which Android phones also use.)
I feel compelled to point out that PostmarketOS, one of the popular Linux phone options is not, in fact GNU. It’s based on musl and BusyBox, not glibc and GNU utils.
carrying a laptop won’t help. If it helped, I won’t mind running a termux os via proot also. I dont mind if it isn’t optimised for small touchscreen yet.
right now most mobile payment options in my country only work with android/ios. My bank requires a phone for its device token (2fa).
The food and cab ordering platform is also exclusively on mobile only.
very sad
My bank requires a phone for its device token (2fa).
In most cases (at least in the US…I suppose that there might be places that require use of a state bank or something) one can pick their bank. None of the banks I bank with require this, and I have never installed a banking app (though I think that they all have an app as an option). One may need a phone of some sort to respond to a voice call or an SMS to validate oneself, but not an app. I believe that Bank of America has the most customers in the US, and they’ll even do YubiKeys via a browser.
The food and cab ordering platform is also exclusively on mobile only.
I think that GrubHub and Uber Eats are the most-common food delivery options where I am. It looks like both permit ordering from the Web (though I’ve never used their services).
Waymo, which in the US is, I think, the most-advanced robotaxi service (and probably currently the only really practical one where I am), does require an app, so I don’t know if there’s a good Web-based robotaxi option. Lyft looks to me like it requires use of an app. Uber looks like it permits Web-based ordering. I’ve never used anything but traditional cab companies (not that I especially object to the newer services, just never bothered to use them), and I’ve never run into one of those that requires an app — I just call up a human.
This isn’t to say that the same situation is true of where you are. But just pointing out that for many people, there are options…though it may require using an alternative service. Those services will be aware of how many people are ordering in what way, so if people are using different methods of ordering, that will cause them (and others) to tend to provide that route.
I’m assuming that this would apply to any “flavor” of android? So Graphene is not immune from this?
From what I’ve heard, google free android versions won’t be effected.
What if I have an android installation that has google, but I watch one of those videos on youtube that says “degoogle your android phone”? Is that enough? Or will I need a full installation that has no google right from the start?
So then, in 194 days, Android will be an inferior version of iOS and you may as well just switch to Apple because their devices have a better security posture.
FUCK no! Apple is dogshit locked down like crazy, so, fuck no, politely.
At least I can get almost 10 years of updates on iOS.
Where they slow down your phone to try and force an upgrade? Let’s be real, how many people keep phones passed their 1-2 year upgrade cycle? I’m coming up on 4 years a my android, and outside of me dropping it in a pool it’s worked well! I’m finally ready to upgrade tho since it’s still funky ever since then.
I usually upgrade every 6 to 7 years.
I don’t know if you’re being stupid or trolling, but that’s literally what’s going to happen to Android soon anyways.
No, because you can literally use an alt app store
“Install F-Droid ↗ on your Android device(s). The more people that use alternative app marketplaces, the harder it will be to shut them out”
Also, to data transfer anything, you’re locked to iTunes on a specific device, on Android I could sideload apps from my SD card if I wanted, move pictures or video, etc.
The link you posted literally has this banner at the top
F-Droid is under threat. Google is changing the way you install apps on your device. We need your help.
Reading is hard for some people lawl
Yes… It does… I copied straight from the article, and a way to combat the whole Dev reg thing was to… Install alt store!!! Whoa!
Also. Apple has alt app stores in other regions. Data transfer on Apple hasn’t needed iTunes for a long time, and it will read USB-c hard drives and keys. I don’t disagree with you that iOS is more locked down, just pointing out the gap keeps getting smaller. I have a Jolla pre order in, because I’m a fan of open hardware, but it will likely be my android phone that I drop in favour of it.
Presumably Android will still allow mounting the complete phone file system and the phones to have SD cards and headphone jacks. If we lose the ability to run whatever we want that majorly sucks, but still not as locked down as iphones.
It’s mostly marketing honestly. They’re both total ass.
No, unless you use GrapheneOS, iOS is far more secure than Android.
The only response I’ve seen so far from F-Droid is that they’ve put up a banner to Keep Android Open. Has there been any kind of plan for next steps?
They responded to it when it first came up 4 months ago. I’ll paste my appropriate comment from that time.
The f-droid team spoke to that in a recent post. The post basically said that if that change isn’t stopped on a government level there’s no way for them to continue working. They didn’t mention roms.
Edit for the link: https://f-droid.org/en/2025/09/29/google-developer-registration-decree.html
They’re gonna take away my Projectivy, aren’t they? 😔
First I’m hearing of this launcher. Definately gonna download the apks.
It was þis which prompted me to take þe plunge and order an FLX1s. I’ve been completely off Android for two weeks now. Mobile Linux is coming along just in time. Maybe just barely; I wouldn’t recommend Phosh to anyone but enthusiasts, but it’s getting þere, if slowly.
you forgot one.
Because it’s useless, like the TSA.
The pronunciation is not thorn there.
That’s the only one where the pronunciation actually is thorn. The rest are eth (ð).
Only in Old English, or Icelandic. Eth had been completely replaced by thorn in English by þe Middle English period.
I know. We’ve had this conversation before.
Oh. And my argument wasn’t convincing?
I often do. It’s a hobby, not a lifestyle.
Sorry to piss off all the Apple shills on here, but sounds like an opportunity to me. I think there’s enough of us that want something better and some traction with Graphene and some Linux options. This should be a spark to ignite some fires. I’m disappointed but unsurpised by this news, but also a little excited about the window of motivation and opportunity this opens.
Honestly, I’m worried. Current Linux options are expensive and or shitty. IDK if Sailfish is still a thing. I can’t use Apple. If I keep taking good care of my not-so-shitty Xiaomi phone, maybe I have a couple more years until I’m pwned.
PostmarketOS seems promising, though.
PostmarketOS is already in a good state for a secondary device, though I don’t think it can completely replace an Android phone just yet. Most devices still have some fundamental hardware support issues even on the more well supported phones (camera is the big one, call audio is also problematic on a lot of devices). However, as a pocketable Linux machine, it is wonderful. I got a second cheap SIM card so I can have data on my OnePlus 6 postmarketOS phone as there are a lot of tasks that work better on Linux than Android. I keep an Android daily driver but am trying to do less and less on it and more on the postmarketOS device.
SailfishOS is still very much a thing and they have a brand new phone on the way. Since it hasn’t been released yet it’s hard to get into specifics, but early interest seems to point in a positive direction at least.
If you care about using third-party Android apps, I have good news for you, but grim news for the ecosystem. You will still be able to use third-party apps. But it’s going to be harder. You’ll probably need to use something like Shizuku or an ADB tool. The first wave of those affected won’t be you and me; it’ll be people who aren’t quite as technically competent. Then, slowly, a chilling effect will echo across independent development.
I look forward to LibrePhone coming online. I hope it comes soon …
“Librephone — Free Software Foundation — Working together for free software” https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/librephone
Could you go over what Graphene is for phones? Is it easy to switch to an alternative to android?
It’s Android with all of the Google removed where possible and sandboxed where not. You can choose to install the Google Play services and use it like any other Android phone or use it without any Google software.
Some things won’t work, namely things like some banking applications and NFC payments, because they require on hardware attestation that Google will not allow Graphene to pass. Essentially everything that isn’t banking/payment related works exactly like any other Android phone.
It is just a secure phone (though you can still install Facebook on it if you want) that is designed around mitigating attacks that could violate your privacy and security.
Very easy to install, you just buy a Pixel directly from Google (don’t buy from the carriers, they’ll be locked). Enable OEM Unlocking in the Developer menu and then plug it into USB and you can install it directly from the Graphene site via WebUSB. It takes about 5-10 minutes, then your phone will reboot (It’ll give you a scary looking screen about not running a Google OS that you’ll see every time it reboots but it’s just informational, it doesn’t affect anything and the system will boot into GrapheneOS in a second or two).
The more complete instructions and WebUSB install process:
Why do banks need a hardware attestation, out of curiosity? I’d assume that banking apps are just clients so all that matters is if they have creds or not.
The banks don’t want their payment systems being accessed by devices that are compromised by malicious actors.
The attestation chain allows for Google to tell the apps ‘Yep, this system is running a known safe image that has been crytographically verified using the secure hardware on the device’. The apps will only allow their payment systems to be accessed (like, to send an NFC payment).
If you want technical details: https://developers.home.google.com/matter/primer/attestation
They don’t NEED it for NFC payments to work, this is a way of limiting attack vectors on their payment infrastructure (or, cynically, a way for Google to ensure that no competing OS can exist because people would rather give Google all of their privacy so they can pull a phone out of their pocket rather than a credit card.
What really bugs me about it: The first step from “how to ungoogle your phone” is “go, give money to Google” by buying their hardware.
Buy refurbished. GOS support will be coming to a (yet unnamed) OEM.
It bugs me also.
My thinking is that the part of Google that I think is bad is their advertising and algorithmic recommendation systems which are built on private data that I no longer wish to divulge.
The Pixel is made by a company that used to be called HTC before they were consumed by Alphabet. That company produced good hardware that was smartly designed and innovative. That legacy continues with the device that Google has sells as the Pixel.
There are a few things about the phone that Alphabet has tainted, such as the inability to use NFC payments because hardware running GrapheneOS isn’t allowed into their secure hardware attestation chain. Not for any real technical reason, only because it allows Alphabet to disincentivize people away from a competitor by abusing their many monopoly powers.
GrapheneOS takes advantage of the excellently designed HTC hardware to create an operating system that is designed from the ground up to be secure. It then leverages the complete control over your hardware to put Alphabet’s other software inside of a little box where it constantly lies to the software in a way that lets your applications work without them actually being able to access everything on your device.
Yes, it is technically an Alphabet product and giving them money can feel distasteful. However, in this case by buying their hardware you can cut off their software, which is the actual thing that is negatively affecting everything.
I’d buy any other phone that fully supported GrapheneOS’s requirements for future devices.
Until then, I’m less worried about giving HTC money than I am about having a device that I know is under my control and that works to protect my privacy.
Its a version of android OS that can be installed on Google Pixel phones. Its a relatively easy switch if you’re technically inclined, but the device needs to be carrier unlocked.
If it’s just a fork of Android, doesn’t that mean 194 days from now they either need to branch off entirely and write their own code from here on out…
Or…
Never advance the base code?
No. As long as the base remains opensource (AOSP), they can remove the bad parts. Graphene has made numerous contributions to AOSP, I’m confident they can manage that. And if the user base growths, I hope their fundings will follow.
It would be a good thing for the world if AOSP was forked with big resources behind an open project with an open governance. But that needs lot of resources.
Neither is true, that’s not how forking works. But there is some truth to it in that it can start to become significantly more difficult to keep in sync as time goes on, depending on how obnoxious the security becomes and how many places they have to remove it.
Consider the trivially naive case where Google implements this feature in a single function: “function app_is_signed() -> bool” then the fork just adds “return true;” to the beginning of that function, and happily merges every other update Google makes from then on with zero issues. Even if the code for “app_is_signed” itself changes, nobody cares, because the first thing it does is return true and everything else Google ever tells it to check or do is ignored, the function can still be used everywhere throughout the code, it just no longer actually checks anything in Graphene, whereas it does check things in Google’s Android.
Of course the reality is much more complicated than that, but the principle is the same. It’s only a question of how obnoxious and difficult Google chooses to be about it. They could move the function around every update, or use many different functions, make a whole system out of it, make it do crazy cryptographic validations and checksums in various different places of the code, have watchdog tasks that are checking that the validation code is getting used. They could be really, really obnoxious about it, if they want to be, and they have more resources than the Graphene OS developers probably do to undo and keep undoing all these obstacles, so if they really want to devote that much time and energy to making Graphene’s position untenable, they can. But they could also be doing that now, and they’re not. Crackers have been fighting these sort of battles against copy-protected software for ages, it’s the same principles, and much of the same economic choices go into it. How much does Google want Graphene OS to go away? How much is it worth to them? It has to have a dollar value to them, and that dollar value might be significantly higher than they’re willing to bother with.
Worst case scenario where Google makes it extremely difficult going forward, what is the hard part about just never rebasing onto future work from Google?
From what I’ve seen there hasn’t been significant core work on Android for a long time. It’s been mostly changing from rounded corners to square corners to rounded corners, or shoving AI into every nook and cranny.
I’d think a small dev team like Graphene could maintain their AOSP fork moving forward.
I absolutely agree they can maintain an AOSP fork going forward, and I think that’s completely realistic and I would be surprised if that is not the case.
But I was answering OP from a strictly technical perspective about the potential difficulties they could, theoretically face while doing that. Since you asked what is the hard part, I’ll answer along those lines (again, with the caveat that I don’t think these are going to pose realistic obstacles for the GrapheneOS team in the near term) My point is not to say it’s impossible but I think it’s important for people to be aware that this approach comes with risks, and those risks will grow over time especially when you’re up against a non-cooperative upstream that is one of the largest and richest tech companies in the world.
For one thing you’re never going to support any new phones without either pulling driver support from AOSP or reverse-engineering the hardware and drivers yourselves, or accepting that some parts will just… not work. So you get stuck on older and less capable hardware. Maybe you don’t care about that too much, and that works fine for awhile, but eventually the cracks start to show. Now you have to either start figuring out how to get into the newer hardware, or you have to start getting custom newer hardware of your own, which is $$$.
Using closed hardware this way as leverage is a pretty common way of getting in the way of open source development, and Android hardware is very closed. Similar tactics are already even being used against x86 PCs now with things like TPM and Secure Boot. It doesn’t completely brick your system on day one of course, but the erosion of support begins when they start writing software that intentionally relies on these features to say “oh, sorry, this software you want to use? it won’t actually work on the open source OS/open source client because they don’t have access to this hardware… what a shame.” One or two pieces of software, no big deal. But they won’t stop there, eventually it’ll be like half the software, then over time it’ll become 90% of the software, you won’t be able to find alternatives. They can often afford to be more patient and relentless about this shit than we are. The battle will continue, and there’s no sure path to victory. Forking is one tool we have, and that’s great, but we also have to remember that it’s not a flawless, unstoppable long-term solution that we can play as a trump card whenever corporate interests do something bad. They don’t just give up. They have other means of getting their way.
I’ll switch in a heartbeat if they support a nonGoogle phone
They’re working on it. Unfortunately most phones have poor security hardware, which is why its limited to Pixels at the moment.
traction with Graphene
What kind of traction? Is it missing something? Or do you just mean more developers behind it?
It’s missing a robust user base imo. More developers too.
Are there any details on how it will be implemented? Will it affect older versions or just new/updated devices?
Gonna have to wing Ubuntu touch and figure it out as i go. Fuck this shit. Access the boot loader while you can
I have F-Droid on my Android phone. Iike having a marketplace where I can download floss apps.
I imagine lots of developers will jump to fdroid.
Not sure what closed source apps who don’t want to pay Google will do though…
You bank will be the last. Without your bank’s app, you may not be able to do online banking. Car park apps. Public car charger apps. Even theme parks now have a ride booking app. There is more and more “app for that” with no alternative.
We require law makers to get involved. America making it’s tech monopolies a visible geopolitical problem should help us.
So what other os that is supported with security updates and still works with whatapp/fb/insta sideloading is there? For me the security support and access to messaging apps is most important since that is what i use mostly. Any ideas?
- Google has announced that a workflow for advanced users to install whatever they want will remain, but hasn’t published details. Many people don’t entirely trust them about this.
- Third-party Android builds like LineageOS won’t be affected. These need a device with an unlockable bootloader. They can run any Android app that doesn’t intentionally sabotage them (some banking apps do this).
- Linux distributions for phones exist, and can run Android apps via Waydroid. This provides the most freedom for the user, but the highest effort. This is mainly suited for Linux hobbyists right now.
IMO the big problem with this is for old APKs that were created before this new developer registration requirement- you won’t be able to install them at all without rooting or using a different vanilla Android version.
It prohibits developers from creating apps and maintaining their anonymity but it also prevents scammers from anonymously streaming people’s money with fake apps.
Will be a big problem if their developer registration process is difficult or used as a restriction somehow to govern who can register.
can i walk around this by simply never updating my phone? been (not?) doing that for a year already anyways
Will most likely not be a problem short-term but over time there will be apps that will require a newer OS version than the one you are stuck on and just stop running.
The main reason you should not do that is because of known security issues that are not fixed in your old install. So you are opening yourself up to being more vulnerable to malicious software.
aw whack you’re right, when my banking app stops supporting my OS version i’ll have to update
ya i know, but i don’t really download anything on my phone or click suspicious links, i know this is not a perfect defence, but honestly, i hate UI changes more than i worry about malicious software
Just wanted you to be aware. Not blaming you. It’s an overall shitty situation / outlook.
