It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I’ve been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie “ideology” for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create…festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I’ve personally seen it over and over and over again. All the “Just go back to Reddit” or “just another lib Redditor refugee” comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee’s shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/“They didn’t perfectly agree with me” instance. They call feddit.org a “Nazi Zionist” instance for the crime…of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law…
I haven’t looked to see if they’ve started any “celebratory” posts about Dubvee yet and I also don’t really want to, if they’re there, I already know what they’re going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has “metastasized”. And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now…now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don’t think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs’ instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I’ve been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I’ve got some thick ass skin so I’ll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I’ll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I’ll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with “normie proof” onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I’ll flood this place with “normies” LMAO
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If anyone thinks this is turning into 4chan or even worse, voat, you seriously have not experienced either of those.
If you put an average person in here with a minimal idea of what 4chan is, what would they say this place is like?
When they inevitably get scared off because some .ml users were going off ranting about how such such article about NK that got posted was actually western propaganda and that “NK is all good actually”, what do you think they’ll tell others?
This isnt about me or you, we have thick skin and can deal with the BS toxicity and have even become desensitized to it so it doesn’t seem that bad
But we are not the average person and if we want the Threadiverse to succeed and maybe even threaten Reddit a bit, we need the normal users
If you put an average person in here with a minimal idea of what 4chan is, what would they say this place is like?
What is that supposed to argue? That someone random might be ignorant?
But we are not the average person and if we want the Threadiverse to succeed and maybe even threaten Reddit a bit, we need the normal users
That’s all well and good, but we’re still, nowhere near 4chan, voat or even Twitter. Claiming that lemmy is “just as bad as voat” is nonsense and just serves to make people like me dismiss their opinions as someone ignorant and exaggerating.
I hope you’re right
I’ll take someone claiming that a post about North Korea is western propaganda over someone that is trying to explain, how supporting genocide is somehow the right political choice.
I feel like the people that feel an over presence of “tankies” on instances that aren’t ml, hexbear or grad, are confused that the fediverse is notably more left-leaning than what they are used from reddit, Twitter or other corporate social media. Being exposed to maybe not being that “lefty” after all and more of the right side of the political spectrum here, seems to rub them the wrong way.
Here’s a screenshot of the !worldnews@lemmy.ml As you can see, on the “tankie instance” News positive for Ukraine is getting the upvotes and stuff positive of Russia is getting the downvotes
Here’s a screenshot of the !worldnews@lemmy.ml As you can see, on the “tankie instance” News positive for Ukraine is getting the upvotes and stuff positive of Russia is getting the downvotes
Would you like to check the modlogs next?
I usually don’t get bothered by people on the Internet, but holy fucking shit how I was absolutely going crazy over the fact that people unironically shill North Korea.
I’m Korean. We are under constant threat of shit balloons and missiles. They punish people and their family members for trying to leave the country. How can one possibly look at that and say, “Yep, that’s fine”?
deleted by creator
They won’t, I think many are testing the waters with PieFed for an ultimate move over, but I have a feeling for the ones that matter *cough* .world *cough* it would likely be a months long process, that ultimately will arrive too late.
https://piefed.world/ already exists and people can import their subscriptions from Lemmy. Not sure what more you expect them to do? Shut down their Lemmy instance?
Well defederating from .ml would have gone far dessalines being butthurt about it be damned, but at this point, idk probably wouldn’t matter anymore
Wish I could easily block all .ml communities (not the comments and posts that .ml users make on other instances, I want to be able to downvote and report them if other non-tankie users can see them).
You can. Just block the instance.
(not the comments and posts that .ml users make on other instances, I want to be able to downvote and report them if other non-tankie users can see them).
That’s how instance blocking works at the user level right now. It only blocks communities on the instance, not users.
Oh, that’s unexpected! Thanks for the correction.
The dubvee shutdown posts makes some valid point, but I disagree on a few others.
The communities I’m in are mostly safe from toxic users
- !movies@piefed.social
- !casualconversation@piefed.social
- !wholesome@reddthat.com
- !lego@piefed.social
- !football@sopuli.xyz
I avoid news and politics, that probably helps a lot on that regard
This might be a call for mods to keep an eye on reports, and for users to post and comment on well moderated community. !fedigrow@lemmy.zip can help.
It’s sad to see Admiral Patrick go, but it’s not all doom and gloom.
Reddit keeps enshittifying (DM shutdown, UK age verification), we might see new people come here soon.
I avoid news and politics, that probably helps a lot on that regard
Honestly, same. As an ML user (this is my UK alt), I never really saw any of toxicity described by so many others, but I guess I just learned early on to put my filters up and have been living in my own bubble within ML.
If a place gets toxic, I tend to just leave instead of doubling down, and that I think is a pattern that might be alien to some because how reddit used to function: you couldn’t just leave reddit politics-wise because the frontpage literally hammered you with it, so you’d have to stand your ground and fight until users or mods waded in. But here? You can leave lemmy politics-wise because the frontpage is either your subs or local posts filtered through your block lists.
I’m very happy in my bubble, and it does genuinely confuse me when someone says “oh, you’re from ML, are you?” and I think “yeah… and it’s mostly quiet, just the way I like it”
you couldn’t just leave reddit politics-wise because the frontpage literally hammered you with it, so you’d have to stand your ground and fight until users or mods waded in. But here? You can leave lemmy politics-wise because the frontpage is either your subs or local posts filtered through your block lists.
How is this different from Reddit? Reddit has a user feed that consists of communities you’re subscribed to and lemmy’s All is the direct equivalent to r/all, i.e. Reddit’s front page, and you could also block communities (at least with Reddit Enhancement Suite, not sure if that’s a feature of the Reddit itself). The main difference is the existence of instances and their Local feeds. Note that it’s been a while since I used Reddit beyond looking at Reddit posts that I found in web searches, might be that the feeds don’t work like I remember them anymore.
UK age verification
Isn’t that an issue that literally all platforms that are active in the UK have to deal with, unless they are exclusively doing content that is considered appropriate for children? Or did Reddit do something that is extra-bad?
Not an expert, but from what I’ve heard, if you don’t allow NSFW content you don’t have to comply ?
NSFW content as they define it? It’s one thing to allow porn, but e.g. tumblr had a whole thing about banning transition timelines (AFAIK including ones that only had clothed pictures) and many consider any kind of sex education inappropriate for children. Plus the whole issue of violence and gore, which is a common theme in the news.
I have little faith about the UK being reasonable about this. And AFAIK it’s not enough to ban certain types of content, they also have pretty steep requirements for how fast a website has to moderate it if users post disallowed content, with hefty fines if you don’t comply well enough that would immediately bankrupt many smaller sites depending on how it’s enforced.
I think it is worth differentiating between dubvee and lemm.ee on this topic. Dubvee seems to have been shut down mostly for personal reasons, and IMHO if the timing would have not overlapped with the lemm.ee shut down people would just consider it part of the normal churn of smaller instances coming and going.
On the other hand, lemm.ee was a bit of a special case. From the very beginning they invited a lot of “defederation is bad” type of people to their instance and were also one of the few larger instances that decided to keep federating with hexbear despite having first hand experience with their toxicity. So to a large extend they set themselves up to alot of drama 🤷 In addition their technical setup was probably a bit overengineered, adding to the admin workload.
As an instance admin myself, I can’t say that things are overly stressful if you defederate the right instances and quickly ban alts of known troublemakers.
However, I agree that the feddit.org witchhunt was very toxic, and as a moderator of /c/europe@feddit.org I was also directly targeted. But it was clearly a very small number of people that instigated most of it. Discounting alts and throwaways it was probably a single digit number of people doing 95% of the harm.
Uh, I’m not sure if you read a different thread, but in his formal shutdown thread in !announcements@dubvee.org he was quite clear about it being about fighting against the toxicity. He basically got to a good point, but because of the .ee wake he had to start over.
But yes .ee was a special case, it was sad especially being the second largest instance. But a second instance shutdown in a month also citing burnout and toxicity is a red flag.
Now I’m worried if next week SJW or slrpnk is going to announce their shutdown due to toxicity
We (slrpnk.net) are only planning to move to Piefed due to technical annoyances with Lemmy the software. As I wrote above, the level of toxicity we see on our instance is really not so bad.
Is there a post on this anywhere? I’d consider moving to solarpunk to get off lemmy and away from the tankies, but when I tried the .world piefed instance it was incredibly slow.
Not yet. We are waiting for an upstream change that would allow us to import existing bcrypt hashed passwords from the Lemmy database.
In my experience Piefed is quite fast, maybe there was some temporary issue with the piefed.world instance?
Aye quite possibly, there’s a pinned post about it on their front page so its possible its taking a bit of a load battering. I’ll keep my eye out for your instance then.
But is that from a “normie” perspective or from a regular Threadiverse user perspective? Because from a regular Threadiverse user perspective many have become desensitized I feel, and that’s also another aspect of the problem.
Because ptz has been operating on tamping down toxicity with the goal of it being attractive to the average user.
The Threadiverse will not actually achieve much without the “normies”
Can you describe what you mean by a normie? I’m genuinely curious.
Maybe stop posting for a few days and go touch grass. You’re sounding hysterical.
It’s crazy that I’ve been on Lemmy for like 2 years and I think I’ve encountered direct toxic behavior only a handful of times. Obviously I’m aware of the trolls and problematic instances, but those can easily be blocked.
Am I the asshole?
It was an old truism on Reddit that you could avoid 99% of the worst behaviour by just never going on /r/all or visiting the default subs. If you just visit communities you actually like, you have a much nicer experience.
It’s the same here. I subscribe to a bunch of communities I enjoy, and I browse Local on my home instance feddit.uk. I basically never go on the big All feed. And my experience is pretty tranquil; rarely do I see any trouble, and even more rarely trouble that the mods/admins can’t keep on top of.
dunno, this seems a pretty chill instance and your experience mostly matches mine. There are a few knobheads I see around though (I started adding user notes and it’s amazing how any agro chat is always one of the same few accounts)
Unfortunately I think some of this perception is an example of the echo chamber problem of social media.
If you’re in the politics and news echo chambers you see horrendous toxicity all the time. But if you’re in hobby groups and interest groups that have nothing to do with politics it’s generally not toxic in my experience.
I’m in both and there are loads of positive and kind communities and people around. I fear the moderators in particular have an understandably skewed view as they have to trudge through the toxic shit every day and protect a lot of the rest of us from it.
I think there is something to be said for more defederation of entire instances where toxic cuktures are allowed to thrive, even if they also happen to host more positive communities too. Those communities need to move and the priority for the Threadiverse tech needs to be enabling movement of communities as easily and painlessly as possible so the toxic areas can be left to fester on their own.
Honestly, I got banned from that instance after down voting several posts I disagreed with, which is what down vote is there for, and dude told me to fuck off in the notice like I was running a script or something. I don’t personally care, but I also have zero sympathy for someone on the internet being that sensitive or heavy handed. Probably didn’t deserve whatever toxic nonsense they’d been exposed to, but still, based on my interactions with em, good riddance.
Don’t get too down. You’re like literally my hero here. Piefed needs some work still but I’ll put up a vote to move 3d printing to piefed.world when it gets sorted enough. I REALLY wish someone would implement the option in the Lemmy API to disregard down votes completely (alexandrite - lookin at you). The negativity when I am already having a bad day or week or month is often a very big deal to me that causes me to go elsewhere. I’m especially ostracized by people that are insane about AI negativity. I can now prove quite a bit about my ramblings and explorations, but that is a pit of stupidity here so I go elsewhere to talk to others about it. I’m okay with the mixed group and people of various ages and backgrounds. It is the lack of respect for people of all levels and backgrounds by others in how they interact that I do not like. Just be positive. IMO if downvotes must exist they should only exist for those that post regularly. I upvote all kinds of stuff, many times just to counter some negative fool. I’ll upvote almost anything just to say “I’m happy you’re here and a part of this place because it is a little more wonderful with you here,” - even when I have no clue or interest in some niche scope. The world can be a terrible negative place, but your one choice and vote in this life is to be a part of the solution or a part of the problem. Fuck the problems; be a solution. What could I do to help you? – seriously digital neighbor friend.
Hey i didn’t know about the 3dprinting instance. Neat clicks
echoed quite a bit of what I’ve been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie “ideology” for months now.
Sorry, how is his post at all about the ‘triad’?
Frankly, I think it’s the constant attempts at instigating flame wars that I find to be so grating, not the users with opinions I find distasteful. I have no idea what ptz’s specific experience was like, but seeing a prominent anti-tanky crusader project their personal vendetta onto this announcement is the kind of shit I find myself constantly rolling my eyes at.
Federated social media is built to facilitate community between people of different preferences, and it’s exactly this constant crusading that’s likely to extinguish it. You think you’re on a mission of purification but it looks more like you’re extinguishing what little enthusiasm there was for lemmy to begin with. Defederation is absolutely a tool for moderation, but making it your entire mission to push for it in every space you participate in is itself a suffocating cancer.
Let people decide for themselves what instances they want to commune with and stop pestering the entire platform into reflecting your personal tastes.
TIL dubvee is shutting down.
shutdown today actually is what people have been sayin. it doesn’t load for me igh now
There’s a lot of bumpiness involved with setting up the fediverse and not every instance, frontend, project and app will work out in the end. The fediverse is relatively young compared to Facebook. Though as we venture further into our journey the sharper we become.
They call feddit.org a “Nazi Zionist” instance for the crime…of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law…
Yeah how dare we :/
And how dare we don’t want needlessly endless drama that doesn’t lead to anything.
I guess I’ve been here 2 years too did lemmy start out tankie or was it due to the migration? The lsc sub on reddit was a full on echo chamber
.ml is the flagship instance run by Lemmy’s developers, and that’s always been tankie.
Well that explains a lot. Kinda feel bad then but I guess that’s the point of federations
The legend goes that dessalines and Nutomic were unpopular and getting bans on Reddit and then set off to make Lemmy like 5-6 years ago to get away from Reddit
The first time I found out that dubvee existed was when they banned me from all of their communities. And it sounds like they’re just being soft skinned instead of just defederating the tankie instances. I’d argue having tankie instances is a good thing. It keeps them contained and easy to block.
Yea, no, I know you and whatever ban was handed down was justly deserved.
It keeps them contained and easy to block.
It’s a failed theory, they all have alts upon alts, and block isn’t a block on Lemmy
You’re the same dude who took over the conservative forum on Lemmy.world and banned me because I was criticising an atheism post on there
I sure did, I nipped a transphobic comment before it devolved into a full blown argument.
You are the “pORn iS A SiN” “HOmOSeXUalItY MakES jEsUS CrY” user. You are one of the ones they are talking about that is “subtle” in their trolling.
It wasn’t a transphobic comment. It was a response to openly mocking people’s choice to raise their children Christian.
It was a response to openly mocking people’s choice to raise their children Christian.
It really wasn’t: https://p.feddit.uk/post/feddit.uk/31856602?thread=0.18336647#18336647
The premise of the meme is that’s it’s hypocritical to think that children can’t understand the ideas of being gay or trans, but somehow can decide to be Christian. Your response is mostly non sequitur and implies it’s actively dangerous to teach kids about gay people.
My comment was deleted. I misunderstood the premise. I was saying that teaching kids about Christianity at a young age isn’t bad, but teaching kids about sexual intercourse and in depth details about transgender issues is. There’s nothing wrong with teaching kids that “some people have two mums” at a young age, or when they’re a teen teaching them about sex ed and that people who have gender dysphoria exist and should be respected. (In fact, teenagers should be taught about safe sex. It lowers the amount of abortions, as well as children that teens aren’t prepared for.)
