US President Donald Trump’s abduction of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on January 3 has emboldened him to proceed with the annexation of Greenland, a Danish-owned, self-governed territory, spelling the effective end of NATO and furthering Russia’s war aims in Ukraine, experts tell Al Jazeera.
“The move on Venezuela illustrates the Trump administration’s determination to dominate the Western Hemisphere – of which Greenland geographically is a part,” said Anna Wieslander, Northern Europe director for the Atlantic Council, a think tank.
“If the United States decides to attack another NATO country, then everything would stop – that includes NATO and therefore post-World War II security,” Frederiksen said.
“The pandering to Trump has been an element of our strategy over the last year, leaving observers hoping, but not entirely trusting, that another element of the strategy is preparing urgently for the final rupture with the United States,” Giles said.
Giles told Al Jazeera that Europe’s best option was to place a military deterrent on Greenland now, believing that putting allied troops in the Baltic States and Poland after 2017 deterred a Russian attack there.
I hope the US loses all international rights if this happens. It has too many.
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Some countries in Europe are starting to, and given what Europe is, that’s probably the best they can start doing.
At least because they made sure to show us their hand at their latest sonic weapons and information warfare used to shut down weapons that was used in the Venezuela attack. They would probably go the same route with Europe, trying to behead whatever strategic target is going to get them what they want, because they can’t go for a prolonged conflict either.
End of NATO means:
- Russia will go all in in Ukraine, Moldavia and baltic states
- Turkey and Greece will go to war.
- Israel will bomb everybody just in case
- China will get Taiwan
- USA will bomb Mexico
- Israel will nuke someone
- …
And this is why billionaires have been building bunkers.
\7. France nukes everyone. (That’s their policy, anyone uses nukes, they launch everything they have against all nuclear powers, which isn’t a lot, but that’s a lot of major cities gone.)
Isn’t that Israel’s nuclear doctrine?
Yea, it is. Not true of France.
Officially Israel “doesn’t have nukes,” unofficially they have very few that could be used in short order before they are nuked. They don’t have the capability to nuke more than a few countries in the Middle East
That’s not an answer to my question. What you described sounds most like Israel’s Samson Option and not anything like I’ve ever heard of France’s nuclear doctrine.
Israel doesn’t have the capability to deliver. That’s about as useful as saying North Korea will nuke everyone. They literally can’t.
France adopted the policies I listed, with some small nuance in the 1970s and haven’t changed their stance.
Source ?
I can’t find the articles that I read about this, but if you look up their nuclear policies, they won’t use in first strike scenarios, but the will use for defensive strikes, which amounts to exactly what I said. In defensive scenarios, someone else already used them, so may as well unload your entire stockpile. Everyone else is going to unload theirs.
Just for reference the US, Russia, and China have similar contingencies. Once Israel or anyone launches a nuke or uses a bomb in very short order all the stockpiles get emptied. France just was pretty blatant about it in the '70s.
I know I shouldn’t be shocked at Nazi headlines like these, but Denmark colonized Greenland illegally. Indigenous folks that live there have every right to say no to both occupiers.
How much do you get paid to say shit like this? It’s a really really bad faith argument.
Why would I want to get paid for colonial propaganda‽
I dunno but it’s really, really stupid what you’re saying
The Nazi headline, or Danish occupation?
But who were there before them? Like America and its three-and-counting known phases of human migration, the last two overlapping, at which point do the invaders become the indigenes?
when the killings start.
No colonization is just if the territory was already occupied. Which is the case for most colonization that has ever happened.
“Legal”, however, depends entirely on the colonizer, I guess? They pass a law, boom it’s legal. Still unjust and immoral, but legal.
Greenland is self goverened
Is that why Denmark is sending troops?
Greenland has full autonomy on most matters, except on policies and decisions affecting the region.
so, they are still not self-governing.
Well.
This might shock you: Greenland is self-governing and could leave the Danish Kingdom today, if they held a referendum.
🙏❤️🔥
What experrs? American experts?
They’re kind of forgetting the big elephant in the room that is the fact a lot of US foreign debt is owned by Japan and China, with the majority of the rest of it being held by countries that will be very very pissed off with this move.
If trump is stupid enough to pull the trigger, and those countries decide that a potential physical war is becoming inevitable, they’ll for sure dump all of that debt, all at once; killing the US economy and it’s ability to make war. War needs fuel. Despite Venzuela, Trump won’t have enough of it once his economy tanks.
they’ll for sure dump all of that debt
That is a gain for the US, not a loss. No interest payments on the loans they’ve made, and no need to pay off the principal. Great!
I don’t think you understand how inflation works…
Debt cancelling is a deflationary action. It reduces the money supply.
Not cancelling, selling.
A dollar bill is debt that the govt owes to you. A bond is similar, just a bit different.
The US will still owe, just to different entities, but its figurative credit score will plummet at the same time it’s in a debt spiral.
But let’s make it simpler. Most of the world’s USD is not in the US, but in cash reserves abroad. They hold it like gold.
What happens if the big players sell? It’s already happening a bit, look at EURUSD and gold prices.
Yes. This is Trumps goal. Make foreign goods super expensive for consumers and manufacturers. Exactly what a Tariff does.
They are isolationists. They don’t want debt held overseas.
This would make all goods more expensive, as it would directly devalue the USD. It wouldn’t make people buy local, it would just make them buy less.
It’s not what a tariff does, because that only applies to foreign imports.
Under both, local products become cheaper than foreign.
Dumping their bonds into the market isn’t cancelling their debt. Its making all that debt available for OTHERS to buy. Supply goes up, value goes down.
In other words, if all of the US debt was out up for sale at the same time, is value of the US dollar would crater.
Supply is the same unless debt is cancelled. A weaker dollar makes it easier to pay interest.
"If you owe foreign banks $100, that’s your problem. If you owe foreign banks $100 trillion that’s the foreign bank’s problem.”
That’s not how markets work.
But you’re clearly a troll just being intentionally obtuse for shits and giggles. It’s on me for not having realised it earlier.
Have a good day.
If you think correcting someone’s macro economic misunderstandings is trolling then you will be meeting many more trolls.
The debt doesn’t “go away”, the countries sell it on the market, causing the price of us bonds to drop. That causes the yield (what it costs the us to service the debt) to go up. Borrowing becomes more expensive. Repaying debt or borrowing more to pay interest becomes even more expensive for the us.
Repaying debt or borrowing more to pay interest becomes even more expensive for the us.
Yes. This I agree. But the current administration has shown it is willing to ignore future consequences.
Higher yields are irrelevant if the project 2025 goal is to “Abolish the Federal Reserve” page 768
Those are not some remote future consequences, the downfall would be quite immediate
You are forgetting one thing: no more possibility of selling US debt. And currently the US debt is above 100% GDP.
Here’s a recent article on the chances the USD continues as the world’s reserve currency.
Ps it’s not looking great.
https://www.ftadviser.com/content/5cbf339b-7c4d-464b-8c2a-0c7409e515a0
this fills my heart with joy
Europe should prepare to tell Trump to go fuck himself.
If there’s a war, and the US is cut off due to international sanctions, they’ll have to ship the oil all the way north, by ship, rail, or road, all of which would be VERY susceptible to attacks and sabotage.
And if by ship, they’re likely going to be straining the Navy between ports. Be a shame if something breaks too as we have less dock space available for repair than we did when we laid those keels.
He’s also talking about operations in several other countries, and if he’s talking about a few, he’s thinking about a bunch more. He doesn’t seem to understand that it’s not a good idea to spread your forces and resources over multiple battlefronts.
He seems to think that the military is infinite, that he can just throw money at it and it can do anything. He’s talking about a $1.5 TRILLION military budget (who is paying for that?), and he’s going to need a LOT more personnel. That means at some point, he is going to demand a draft, especially if unemployment gets too high. It is already at its highest point since 2020.
America First used to mean we stay out of everywhere else, and concentrate on America, but Trump’s version means America gets first dibs on everything, and if you don’t want to play that game, we’ll just take what we want.
We have more oil than we need already in the US.
We don’t have rare earth or battery materials manufacturing/extraction anywhere near the scale needed for a real war though.
But also Trump and Hegseth are fucking morons who’s wouldn’t smell a strategy if it took a shit on their faces.
And if it comes to strategic dumping of US bonds, on one side you have Mark Carney, a former central bank governor, and on the other Donald Trump, who played a successful businessman on television.
Yeah I think the ordering on that is China, Japan, UK, Canada in terms of the countries that hold US bonds.
A diplomatic delegation came to Canada recently and then Mark Carney went to China. Maybe just coincidence, or maybe not.
Tanking the bonds is essentially the economic equivalent of a nuke. You don’t want to use it because there will be fallout which isn’t good for anyone. But the US actually using military force on Greenland would be a circumstance where you might push the button on that. China has some business interests in Greenland, and generally the US just invading places based solely on the whims of a deranged old man is worse for everyone than the economic fallout from tanking the bonds.
What if I told you that was literally part of the plan? The groundwork for looking the USD was already in project 2025 and the dark enlightenment bullshit the tech feudalists masturbate to requires the balkanization of the US, and pulling a smash and grab on the USD will get us there within ten years. And if Trump makes it to next January they can kill him and we get ten years of “legitimate” Vance and by then it’s well and truly over.
End of NATO. Putin’s wet dream.
…and an EU-China alliance, Trump’s nightmare alliance, with China mediating and resolving disputes in northern Eurasia, including the Russia-Ukraine war, likely with mere words.
He should know that if he blows up NATO, it’s coming.
US analysts should tell him that this potential alliance would have several times the industrial capacity and scientific potential of the US, and if that doesn’t count, it would also have ~ 1000 nuclear warheads.
China is not some all powerful country, nor is it altruistic.
The end of Russia’s war in Ukraine is the end of Putin. Do you think Putin will basically kill himself because of a word from China?
And you’re thinking too small. There is a lot of diplomacy going on between every country in the world. Mark Carney is in China at this very moment. There are other delegations in India. Japan, Korea, and China are working together a little more now, and they hate one another. Everyone is making temporary alliances. It’s shaping up to be US and Russia vs. the world.
Trump is trading NATO, the most powerful alliance in history, for Russia, a collapsing country.
He’s not trading anything. You know that joke:
- People: We need healthcare!
- GOP: Fuck off!
- DNC: Fuck off! #BLM #woke #believewomen #imwithher
They could’ve taken over Venezuela and said it’s about democracy. The media was poised to make that the story. Europe slid in with “well, he is a dictator…”. They even had a Nobel peace prize recipient ready to jump in and take over. Hell, half the people on here were willing to go along with it. But for MAGA, doing evil isn’t enough anymore, you have to rub it in, you have to gloat about it, you have to be mean. Giving Israel weapons isn’t enough, you have to publicly tell them to kill everyone. It’s not enough to twist other nations’ arms in trade deals, you have to literally extort them. It’s not enough to round up and deport brown people, you need to have camps and cages and then film it and put it on TV, and laugh at them. It’s not enough to ignore protesters, or have them suicided, you have to murder them, and do so openly and proudly.
Dumping NATO, to Stephen Miller, is not a sacrifice but an unshackling. Now they don’t even need to pretend anything they do is for some greater good, even if they weren’t too crass and stupid to pull it off. They believe they’re in the endgame, and they’re just taking what they want.
Heard this one?
People: We need healthcare! GOP: Fuck off! Democrats: Don't vote GOP, you'll be paying more for healthcare, they'll take away people's rights, and we may even lose our democracy Leftists: Both sides! #uncommittedAfter the election:
People: We're now paying double for healthcare and there are masked men in the streets disappearing people GOP: Fuck off! We're invading countries now! Leftist: Both sides! WHY ISN'T CHUCK SCHUMER PREVENTING THIS!!!! Democrats: FFS we don't have any power because you didn't vote for usYou’ve already killed the the Democratic party, now you’re just beating on dead corpse becuase you’ll do anything other than oppose the people actually doing the bad things.
Tell your bullshit about how accelerationism is working to the families of the ~100 people Trump’s special military operation killed in Venezuela. That’s modern leftism for you… killing people in the developing world is somehow good because it helps leftism somehow and it hurts the Democrats (the real enemy!). How are you any different from MAGA at this point?
I’m sorry, you seem to have confused a joke meant to illustrate a point for an invitation to have imaginary conversations with the gaggle of strawmen you have living in your head.
I’ll leave you to it.
Yeah MAGAs also do the “I was just joking!” thing when I explain how stupid the things they post are.
You have more in common with MAGAs than you think.
…Man, those literacy stats about the US weren’t wrong…
China doesn’t want world domination. It just want to look out for China. However, what it considers China and what everyone else does are very different.
China is no different from the US.
Trump is in power because Americans have been made to think they need a strongman to make the economy work and protect them from the evil foreigners that are trying to screw them over.
Xi is in power because Chinese have been made to think they need a strongman to make the economy work and protect them from the evil foreigners that are trying to screw them over.
They are the same.
I’m in Canada and I see Taiwan as being in a similar situation to us. Trump wants Canada to be part of the US. Xi wants Taiwan to be part of China. The Taiwanese are facing the same struggle as us, and because of that, they are our brothers and sisters.
Fuck Xi and fuck Trump. They’re no different. We have to make deals with China but we know they’re the same as the US. They’re further away so not an immediate threat to us while the US is. That’s the only difference between them.
I mean Donald Trump is working for Vladimir Putin come on
Power couple of the century
That would be the ultimate win for Putin: Destruction of the NATO.
I don’t think NATO is going to end, I think what’s going to happen is NATO is going to turn on America if Greenland gets annexed. That is how I think World War III is going to start.
Agreed NATO will go on without the US.
Russia doesn’t look like the threat they once were. Ukraine has been holding them off all by themselves.
If all the NATO nations (sans USA) got together and raged on Russia, Russia would fall pretty quick.
The problem is Putin would use nukes if cornered.
Nukes are the only major worry about Russia, of course. However, there is a lot of doubt about the viability of their nuclear arsenal. It’s assumed that they are mostly in disrepair, and many might not even be operational, but all it would take is one good one left to mess up the whole world’s day.
And presumably, the ones that are on nuclear subs swimming around the world are fully operational.
Canada has the world’s longest undefended border with the US. There’s no hope if the US invades. It would be like Russia invading Ukraine with no mountains in the way
This would be impossible to hold we would lose it the second we stopped dumping hundreds of billions per year and would never own anywhere but islands of fascism where our troops were concentrated.
We would suffer continuous losses and the whole world except Russia and China would turn against us.
We would probably suffer economic collapse as other countries dropped dollars and exchange rates shifted against us while war creates a need for tax money which can only be raised by taxes which are unpopular or tariffs which further destroy trade.
If Congress doesn’t get behind attacking Canada Trump could only fund it by misappropriating money or raising tariffs.
Ultimately we lose Canada and end up in the next great depression
Maybe America has to be understood as the logical conclusion of Western European geopolitical and moral ideology, and maybe it has to hurt Europeans (I’m French living in the UK, DW, it’ll hurt me too but such is life) for us to finally consider some sort of ideological revolution that produces something that’s diametrically opposed to what’s currently embraced. I mean, it’s not like we wouldn’t be doing whatever America has been doing for at least 70 years if we had their power level, lol, history shows that clearly, so for this all to end because it must (“THIS SICILIAN THING THAT’S BEEN GOING ON FOR 2000 YEARS!”) our minds have to undergo a drastic collective change.
It’s peak neolib capitalism.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”
TBH the change can be pretty small, albeit revolutionary.
Actually embrace the humanitarian values of enlightenment. Gain some class consciousness. Remove the dictatorship of the capital by seizing the means of production. Consider other peoples of the world as equals and allies rather than dumb weaklings to be taught a lesson and/or exploited.
It all fits in a very long and established european tradition. Remember that Marx, Engels, Liebknecht, Luxemburg, Kropotkin, and Lenin were all europeans.
The humanitarian ideals of the enlightenment were used to justify colonialism, they simply said “look, those people don’t have our humanitarian ideals, we need to take control of their society/resources.”
Europe is kind of just a retired United States, the pension scheme is the us defense budget
We are seriously in a good position right now in EU believe it or not. Trump has been a wakeup call, and we are already mobilizing faster than - ever? - however, imagine being Canada, australia, Japan, etc. Countries far far away from Europe. If nato dies, Europe makes a new defense alliance, focussing on having troops on the, continent. Canada and australia needs to come closer to Europe. Trade wise, militiary wise, political, if they don’t wanna get sucked up in the strongest superpower nearby, even if they have anything in common or not.
We’re trying to come closer in all those ways. The “don’t buy US made products” has spread everywhere and I hear it’s starting to make an impact.
I’m worried about our southern neighbours… I see the news and it feels like they might have a civil war on their hands.
I think EU should cut off US completely and BRICS should form then EU and BRICS should do trade. Ban all US social media and boycott anything that’s made in US
Europe just finally signed a deal with Mercosur (that’s the B in BRICS). Europe is also negotiating one with India. And it’s increasing sanctions against Russia. BRICS is just an annual show off conference with zero substance.
BRICS is just a propaganda thing, it’s all it will ever really be. Most trade happens between countries near to one another, though sometimes there’s cultural similarities countries can come together on. The BRICS countries are all over the world, they all speak different languages and have very different political systems and interests.
Brazil is a democracy in South America Russia is a fascist regime in Europe and Asia India is a democracy in Central Asia China is a fascist regime (that pretends to be communist) in Asia South Africa is a democracy in Africa
Some of these countries have more trade and closer relations with western countries than with each other. China and India occasionally exchange gunfire over border disputes. Brazil has other trade agreements in South America which are way more meaningful. South Africa is similar.
It’s just some fantasy of internet contrarians that have fallen for the “liberal democracies are bad actually” bullshit and want some weird group of countries that are going to… well no one knows.
And LOL at the EU wanting to do trade with Russia right now. Did you even think about what that R in BRICS stood for?
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Russia? China? How?
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I mean they don’t call it the Century of humiliation for nothing lol. Yeah Russia doesn’t make sense though.
During the 90s, Russia went from standards of living comparable to the west to the third-world shithole it is now. We’ve never seen a drop in life expectancy on this scale outside famine and war. This was due to the “shock therapy”.
I forgot about the 90s but yeah good point. I never heard of “shock therapy” before but seems interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_therapy_(economics) , seems like its a Retronym for describing IMF inspired market reforms. Good way to keep a country down :D
Here’s a book on a lot of required reading lessons for understanding the dynamic between the US and Russia. https://annas-archive.se/md5/f340859dd26f83063256d1374813307c
So you believe the Trump zero sum game view of the world? Wealth is entirely about resources, and people don’t create value?
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Here is how the Greenland issue will likely play out. Trump doesn’t live in the real world and is too dumb to see the downside to what he is doing, so he will get Greenland one way or the other. The reasonable people on the other side see this, and have poor options. Either they sell Trump Greenland, notwithstanding all the reasons that this would be improper and unnecessary, or they stand firm and Trump moves in and takes it, which would effectively be an attack on a NATO country and trigger article 5. This would end NATO as we know it, as the U.S. would no longer be part of it (which Russia would love to see). If Denmark sells Greenland to the U.S. to appease Trump, they get some money and the fig leaf of NATO remains, as there is no attack on a NATO country. I believe that the latter course is more likely, as appeasement will disrupt the status quo much less, and history shows that appeasement of fascists is usually the first course of action (see, e.g., Chamberlain’s approach towards Nazi Germany in the 1930s.) Of course, this will only embolden Trump and his followers, as it will be seen as Trump’s great success.
Incidentally, if Trump were smart, what he would do is immediately start building up the base that the U.S. already has, and then get Denmark to agree to several additional bases, ideally in every town on the island, ostensibly to protect U.S. security interests. Then, use the bases to start pumping money into the local economy. Each base would have construction projects, personnel to feed and entertain, etc., etc. Suddenly, the locals would see dollars flowing into their pockets and their communities prosper. The U.S. could offer each citizen of Greenland $1 million tax free dollars if the country joins the U.S., and pressure Denmark to let Greenland put it to the vote. The population of Greenland is only 56,831, so the cost to purchase would be less than $57 billion. If Denmark balks, simply declare Greenland part of the U.S. and it’s citizens U.S. citizens, and make Denmark the bad guy for trying to strip Greenland of it’s right of self determination. If it goes to the vote, it seems highly probable that a majority the citizens would take the financial windfall and Greenland would become part of the U.S… On the outside chance that the citizens voted against their own financial interests, well, the U.S. would already have a ton of military already in place, and show its true colors and take it anyway. With this strategy, the U.S. could at least pretend to be the good guy.
Man if the US offered me 1 million to take my province I’d change my tune so fast though. I’d be like “sweet thanks you fat idiot fucks” and then I would use that money to move somewhere far away from this stupidity immediately.
You really think there’s anywhere that’s far enough away?
Cassian Andor found that out
Moving to the Netherlands would paradoxically allow you to be high enough away.
No reason you couldn’t take his money, then vote No. That’s what I’d do. I don’t owe any loyalty to a corrupt, treasonous, racist, rapist, pedophile. He’s cheated countless people in his life, I have a moral responsibility to cheat him back, and take his money away from him.
Take his money, vote no, leave, move to a country where a million dollars lets you live like a king and be served by beautiful phillipino boys until I die. Thats my plan with my hypothetical that will never happen because
One: A capitalist would never offer that level of economic freedom to a working class body of that magnitude and
B: I don’t live in Greenland.
Valid.
The U.S. could offer each citizen of Greenland $1 million tax free dollars if the country joins the U.S.
Money only gets paid out if Greenland joins the U.S. in this hypothetical. And it would go to all citizens, not just people who voted yes.
Anyone believing in getting money promised by a grifter well known for not paying his bills deserves to be cheated.
You really think they would give the money to them before Greenland joined? And in fact - once it joined who actually guarantees they’d get it, lol. They might just claim, this is part of the infrastructure the US provides for Greenland
I do not think they will be offering everyone in Greenland a million dollars.
He already offered 100k, but what is an offer from a grifter well known for not paying his bills worth?
Yeah exactly.
They won’t provide any infrastructure though. They’ll be happy to say it’s for the “service” of administrating Greenland and for the “security” provided.
If he was smart then he would just start mining, no one is opposing it.
If he was knowledgeable, he’d know it’s a dead end trying to mine stuff up there.
Nobody cares about mining anything in Greenland. Nobody actually cares about any resource in Greenland, or even the people in Greenland. Not strategically, anyway, before anyone gets it twisted. Rare earths, fine, whatever, that’s just a marginal distraction.
Greenland is the fence post on one side of the gate which allows NATO to control Russia’s potential naval passage into the Atlantic. At present Russia functionally cannot project any naval force to western Europe without literally going the long way around, all the way around Asia and Africa and past the tip of Cape Town, etc. Not at all coincidentally, the vestiges of the Cold War are why the US has always been so keen to maintain a military presence on Greenland in the first place.
With Greenland out of the picture and the US theoretically also on Russia’s side rather than NATO, Putin stands a much greater chance of being able to get his warships into the Atlantic by hugging the coast of Greenland and then subsequently threaten the rest of Europe.
So Greenland is vital for Europe’s security, but not exactly for the US…great…
Yes. And also while we’re at it, just remember who has been whispering in Trump’s ear all the goddamn time.
There’s supposed to be a huge untapped oil field that Greenland and Denmark refuse to explore. That’s what Trump is after.
Gonna keep spamming this cuz I made it a year ago and it sat in a random folder on my PC for the perfect time lol
Putin is a genius
He could have waited a few more years before his special military operation for his Trojan horse to get back into office. Wouldn’t call him a genius entirely.
I think it’s more that Americans are stupid.
Putins had his hand in ensuring that happened for the latest generation as well.
It was Americans that created a culture where people will believe anything as long certain symbols are referenced. Throw in a flag or a cross and they’ll believe any bullshit.
Americans made themselves stupid, Putin just exploited that stupidity.
Too much lead poisoning makes people dumb.
He brexited, too.
Nah that was British boomers being stupid.
And he played their stupidity just right.
They are a nation who stereotypically love playing chess…
Yep, he played everyone perfectly. Used economical ambition to neutralize Germany, nationalism to defeat UK and stupidity to take over US.
