• plyth@feddit.org
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    2 days ago

    that China (or Russia) isn’t to blame for the effects of their own conscious decisions.

    The art of creating dilemmas or catch-22s. There was no winning move for them.

    Dollars, why else?

    I asked you. I think they do things for long-term success and are not driven by greed alone.

    become independent of those “big players”

    Which is impossible with too few engineers.

    but frankly, we are strong enough.

    We don’t have key industries. Being stronger in 2025 is only temporary.

    If we have the market but nothing to sell then we are just giving away our substance.

    China imploding and the US turning fascist is no concern of ours if we are independent.

    But we are not. Youtube and TikTok will make sure that the fascists will win the elections.

    The promise of evergrowing wealth for everyone will no longer be sustainable.

    That’s our promise. Are you sure it’s also theirs?

    They are shifting to sustainable energy. Their population will accept ‘just’ a good life.

    We already are supplied by China. We need less supply of them (or the US, just in case you forgot) to be independent.

    Decoupling will make us source all our supplies from the US. Do you see the problem?

    To be independent, we need the engineers. Have you noticed how often I have asked the question without an answer? (Our market is big enough is not an answer.)

    How?

    They have roled back their social credit system because it was too invasive. They can convince the world by finding a better balance than the West.

    • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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      2 days ago

      The art of creating dilemmas or catch-22s. There was no winning move for them.

      Yea right, the evil US is forcing their hands again… and nothing those poor countries can do against it.

      What stops China re-nationalising the means of productions of those billionaires and locking them up like a proper socialist country should do anyway?

      What stopped Russia from simply not invading Ukraine if it was such a mean trap of the evil Americans?

      I asked you.

      I told you. You like to believe in clandestine and carefully executed plans that would require an organised and monolithic elite to work - I believe in the sheer hunger for money. One of these works far easier out of the box… do you know Ockham’s Razor?

      If we have the market but nothing to sell then we are just giving away our substance.

      Wrong. Giving in to trade with China is giving away substance. In your vision, we are only consumers, which will only further weaken us. In my vision, we stop the transfer of jobs and technology in these countries and only trade with countries that align with us.

      Youtube and TikTok will make sure that the fascists will win the elections.

      Just as China heavily governs the influence of YouTube and TikTok in their country, we can do the same here. If there’s someone trying to interfere here in the interest of a foreign nation, we can block them.

      Are you sure it’s also theirs?

      What else can they offer?

      They are shifting to sustainable energy. Their population will accept ‘just’ a good life.

      Hahaha! You might want to look up the amount of newly installed coal power generation in China…

      Decoupling will make us source all our supplies from the US. Do you see the problem?

      The only problem I see is you constantly repeating your misunderstanding that decoupling from China has to mean coupling with the US. It doesn’t.

      To be independent, we need the engineers. Have you noticed how often I have asked the question without an answer?

      What is your fixation with engineers?? And why do you believe we don’t have enough engineers to fulfil our own demand? Where are you from?

      They have roled back their social credit system because it was too invasive.

      Oh is that so? That would be the first time a state is voluntarily giving up control they’ve established over their population. How come you choose to believe them this story? Pinky promise?

      • plyth@feddit.org
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        1 day ago

        What stops China re-nationalising the means of productions

        Nothing, or the memory of the USSR and the opium wars.

        What stopped Russia from simply not invading Ukraine

        Nothing, as Brzezinski has pointed out. They could have worked on joining the EU and becoming independent with us.

        do you know Ockham’s Razor?

        Then explain why all billionaires accept Trump’s policies and haven’t started an uprising before the election.

        In your vision, we are only consumers

        No, we can offer products as market leaders in many categories. But we don’t have the manpower to maintain all basics. E.g. we can’t have our own chip production, or if we have it, it will be less advanced.

        So we need suppliers and we need competition among the suppliers.

        In my vision, we stop the transfer of jobs and technology in these countries and only trade with countries that align with us.

        Who will trade with us? Can they replace USA and China? We are the former colonial power of many countries and we wouldn’t have the best technologies.

        You don’t understand that you need manpower for each technology and the EU doesn’t have enough to maintain them all.

        Just as China heavily governs the influence of YouTube and TikTok in their country

        They have their own, Youtube is forbidden.

        Good luck establishing an EU alternative without the content. The US will use their IP to keep the audience on Youtube. Music acts, movies, streamers, the alternative will be empty. Start banning VPNs. The state will become totalitarian.

        What else can they offer?

        Isn’t a solid life in a world leading country not enough?

        Hahaha! You might want to look up the amount of newly installed coal power generation in China…

        Right.

        The only problem I see is you constantly repeating your misunderstanding that decoupling from China has to mean coupling with the US. It doesn’t.

        Because you have a vision. Sorry for the slight mockery, I still appreciate that attitude. I just hope that you develop a more realistic vision.

        How do we prevent the coupling? Please don’t make me reply with ‘not enough engineers’.

        What is your fixation with engineers??

        Or scientists in general. What else creates the products that can be sold globally?

        Who creates the services, products and tools that we don’t buy anymore from China or USA?

        That’s engineers.

        And why do you believe we don’t have enough engineers to fulfil our own demand? Where are you from?

        We don’t have enough because we don’t have the products right now. If there were bored engineers, somebody would have asked them to build our own products and services.

        I know that we have decent education numbers. But how do we retain enough and the best?

        Oh is that so?

        Judge for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

        • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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          1 day ago

          Nothing

          Exactly.

          Nothing

          Exactly.

          Then explain why all billionaires accept Trump’s policies and haven’t started an uprising before the election.

          What does Trump have to do with America enjoying the trade with China for more than 30 years?

          E.g. we can’t have our own chip production, or if we have it, it will be less advanced.

          Chip production is based in Taiwan. A democratic nation. We obviously will continue trading with them.

          Who will trade with us?

          We will trade with ourselves and other democracies. That’s what it will lead to, as we will experience a phase of reversal after the globalisation. There will be new economic barriers between the countries in the future.

          You don’t understand that you need manpower for each technology and the EU doesn’t have enough to maintain them all.

          What are you talking about? We live in an economic bloc of almost 500m people. Far more than the US. We have all the manpower we want.

          They have their own, Youtube is forbidden.

          See? So why do you think this will be impossible for us?

          Isn’t a solid life in a world leading country not enough?

          You’d have to ask the exploited Chinese migrant workers and others maintaining the Chinese economy under slave-like conditions.

          We don’t have enough because we don’t have the products right now. If there were bored engineers, somebody would have asked them to build our own products and services.

          I’m sorry, but this is absurd. Inform yourself about the number of engineers, scientists and other fields of profession you deem necessary within Europe. I have the feeling you again have a strong opinion without knowing the numbers/facts.

          Judge for yourself

          You know that the Social Credit System isn’t the only way the Chinese state exercises harsh surveillance of its citizens, right?

          • plyth@feddit.org
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            1 day ago

            What does Trump have

            So no explanation, no Ockham’s razor.

            We obviously will continue trading with them.

            Because all countries are equal and the US is not motivating countries to align to their advantage, especially not a country so independent and not in need of military support as Taiwan.

            bloc of almost 500m people. Far more than the US

            The US gets the best engineers from all over the world. You can’t compare the numbers like that.

            So why do you think this will be impossible for us?

            Have you stopped reading?

            You’d have to ask the exploited Chinese migrant workers

            If their lives also improve, everything will be fine. To get ahead of your worries, I am not sure about that.

            have the feeling you again have a strong opinion without knowing the numbers/facts.

            I have seen the numbers some months ago. There were surprisingly many but less than in Russia, rellatively.

            I’m sorry, but this is absurd.

            Then please explain why we don’t have the infrastructure to be independent.

            Social Credit System isn’t the only way

            Yes. It was just to show that they have put a limit to their surveillance which suggest that they do it reasonably enough that other countries are not repelled by it.

            • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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              1 day ago

              So no explanation, no Ockham’s razor.

              That’s not how Ockham’s razor works. You try to explain something by having to resort to a lot of farfetched assumptions while there is one far simpler and easier. That’s why your assumption is unlikely.

              Because all countries are equal and the US is not motivating countries to align to their advantage, especially not a country so independent and not in need of military support as Taiwan.

              None of this has anything to do with what I stated: we will continue to trade with democracies. Chip manufacturing is located in democracies, so your argument about us not having access to chip manufacturing is invalid.

              You can’t compare the numbers like that.

              Sure I can. Your error is applying the current circumstances to what will be in a future with decoupled economies. Things will shift accordingly.

              Have you stopped reading?

              If China can do it, so can we.

              If their lives also improve

              Exactly: if. We will soon find out what happens if not.

              I have seen the numbers some months ago. There were surprisingly many

              There you go.

              Then please explain why we don’t have the infrastructure to be independent

              Because there was no need. We believed in globalisation and the benefits it would bring. Now the times are changing.

              which suggest that they do it reasonably enough that other countries are not repelled by it.

              Yea, however you got to that conclusion…

              In any case, there are hardly any countries with a surveillance (oppression) stronger than in China.

              So to expect them, the autocratic pinnacle, to become a role model when the US should turn fascist is absolutely absurd.

              • plyth@feddit.org
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                18 hours ago

                while there is one far simpler and easier.

                If you can’t tell that simpler one I must believe that it doesn’t exist. I would still like to hear it if you can.

                None of this has anything to do with what I stated: we will continue to trade with democracies. Chip manufacturing is located in democracies, so your argument about us not having access to chip manufacturing is invalid.

                The other side has to agree to trading, too. It would be enough if there is a 30% tax on international sales of chips from Taiwan but the US are excluded. Expect the US to be creative.

                Btw, from which democracy are we going to get gas?

                Sure I can. Your error is applying the current circumstances to what will be in a future with decoupled economies. Things will shift accordingly.

                Do you want to build a wall? How about the rest of the world like India, who will not decouple from the US. Isolating Europe would be like USSR again that fell behind technologically.

                If China can do it, so can we.

                China has their own culture. It’s also a bit arrogant to assume that we can do everything China can do. Africa could do everything the EU can do and yet they are still not as prosperous.

                You have no plan to prevent the US from influencing the elections but full censorship. People will vote for freedom.

                Exactly: if. We will soon find out what happens if not.

                You know that we have been doing, for years? China collapsing is a regular headline.

                This is not a vision but a dream unless you have a hard argument and not just hope.

                Europe decoupling from the US is much more difficult than China automating their production. China will thrive while the EU will crumble.

                Because there was no need. We believed in globalisation and the benefits it would bring. Now the times are changing.

                Like African countries lacking the motivation to build their own industries?

                Look at Intel trying to create the next generation production process or VW trying to write an OS for their cars.

                Without an EU AI, all knowledge is revealed to the US anyway.

                Why do you think the EU was worried about Boeing and built Airbus, but not about IT?

                But even if you manage to replicate everything, China will have a billion people while the EU has half. So China will be able to deliver products that the EU can not. That’s like FRG and GDR again.

                If you can’t force countries into equally sized blocks, one will be the biggest and will lead, technologically at first. Can that be the EU?

                In any case, there are hardly any countries with a surveillance (oppression) stronger than in China.

                Look for the “hilarious bit” in the comments. https://feddit.org/post/20518878

                You argue for politics that will keep the EU strongly coupled to a fascist US while you dream that the EU is independent.

                If we decouple from China before the EU infrastructure is built, the most likely outcome is that it will never be built.

                • Quittenbrot@feddit.org
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                  16 hours ago

                  I would still like to hear it if you can.

                  I told you, numerous times. The US traded with China not because it was an elaborate plan of the clandestine elites to topple China but because there was money to be made.

                  Expect the US to be creative.

                  So what? We can get creative, too. I don’t get why in your view, the other countries can act to get what they want but Europe somehow is only a fragile ship on the waves of others that cannot act itself, destined to subordinate itself to others.

                  Btw, from which democracy are we going to get gas?

                  As long as we haven’t replaced gas with something domestic yet, we have to get gas from a country that is run not according to our standards. This country mustn’t be a rival of ours and as small as possible. So no US, absolutely no Russia, but rather countries like Qatar. But this can only be temporary, we have to be fully independent energy-wise.

                  Do you want to build a wall? How about the rest of the world like India, who will not decouple from the US.

                  What about them? You obviously don’t need walls to steer trade, that’s what tariffs are for and as you can see, we are already in a new age of global tariffs and segregation. Nothing new here.

                  China has their own culture. It’s also a bit arrogant to assume that we can do everything China can do. Africa could do everything the EU can do and yet they are still not as prosperous.

                  I’m sorry: Europe absolutely has its own culture. Europe is economically stronger than China. I don’t know who tells you that Europe is weak, but boy are you manipulated.

                  You have no plan to prevent the US from influencing the elections but full censorship. People will vote for freedom.

                  How do the other countries handle preventing foreign influences on their elections, then?

                  Europe decoupling from the US is much more difficult than China automating their production. China will thrive while the EU will crumble.

                  Yes of course… Europe weak, China strong!! Resistance futile, join China now!!

                  But even if you manage to replicate everything, China will have a billion people while the EU has half. So China will be able to deliver products that the EU can not. That’s like FRG and GDR again.

                  China soo strong! Europe weak!!

                  You argue for politics that will keep the EU strongly coupled to a fascist US while you dream that the EU is independent.

                  I don’t - you do. The whole idea of a Europe coupled to a fascist US is entirely your idea.

                  If we decouple from China before the EU infrastructure is built, the most likely outcome is that it will never be built.

                  Yes yes, trade with China, because China strong. I get it.

                  Let’s wrap it up:

                  You want us to trade with China, because China strong. You think Europe weak, although its market is bigger than that of China, we have a strong industrial base, skilled workers and education so good that others come here to enjoy it. You think that other countries can exert pressure on us but we cannot on them. In your view, Europe is confined to reacting only and you don’t accept anything that challenges this, can’t imagine a scenario where this isn’t the case. At all. So what now? You criticise the influence of the US on us, yet all you do is keep on parroting the talking points of a foreign nation here. Would you actually look at this from a European perspective, you’d actually have the desire to have an open mind, to find solutions. You don’t. You argue almost exclusively from a Chinese perspective. Where are you from?

                  • plyth@feddit.org
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                    14 hours ago

                    would still like to hear it if you can.

                    because there was money to be made.

                    Ockham’s razor. The question was about those billionaires accepting Trump’s policy that will cost them not only the European market. Why do they accept it if they only care about money?

                    I don’t get why in your view, the other countries can act to get what they want but Europe somehow is only a fragile ship

                    Which leverage do we have over Taiwan? We needed the help of the US to bomb Libya. Which leverage do we have over countries when we are in competition with the US? Influencing the country alone is irrelevant.

                    we have to be fully independent energy-wise.

                    Are you willing to go nuclear? Otherwise there won’t be the power to run the data centers.

                    I’m sorry: Europe absolutely has its own culture.

                    That’s why everybody is listening to EU music and watching EU movies. Of course there is culture, but we are talking about mass influence.

                    Europe is economically stronger than China.

                    We are talking about development options.

                    How do the other countries handle preventing foreign influences on their elections, then?

                    Most don’t, do they?

                    Yes of course… Europe weak, China strong!! Resistance futile, join China now!!

                    Europe not strong enough to do it alone. Needs to buy stuff from competing suppliers. No need to join China.

                    But you were betting on China collapsing soon. I don’t see that.

                    I don’t - you do. The whole idea of a Europe coupled to a fascist US is entirely your idea.

                    It becomes my idea when I tell you that a decoupled EU is not sustainable. Interesing. Face it, it will happen if the US becomes our only supplier. At least come up with an argument.

                    If we decouple from China before the EU infrastructure is built, the most likely outcome is that it will never be built.

                    Yes yes, trade with China, because China strong. I get it.

                    No you don’t. Trade with China because US strong.

                    can’t imagine a scenario where this isn’t the case.

                    I can. But for that it is essential that the US is not our only supplier.

                    desire to have an open mind, to find solutions.

                    I do. Try to understand why decoupling from China is dangerous.

                    Then keep in mind that continuing to trade with China is dangerous, too.

                    If you can hold both ideas at the same time, we can start thinking about solutions.

                    Where are you from?

                    China, obviously. I leguralry mess up those letters.

                    None of my arguments requires your trust. Even if I am Xi Jinping, it must be logical to realize that the citizens of the EU are not enough to maintain all technologies on their own and that sourcing the missing technologies from a fascist US is a disaster bound to happen.