That’s what I think. EVs aren’t functionally equivalent to ICE cars yet - most of them can’t go as far between fillups, and they take longer to fill up. Those are steadily improving. But the cost benefits are there. Back in 2013 when I bought my Leaf I went from spending $1800/year on gas to $300/year on electricity, and in 12 years my only maintenance costs were windshield wiper blades and a set of tires - which I would have needed with a gas car. But no oil changes, tuneups, no filters, belts or hoses, no spark plugs. No radiator problems, starter problems, pump replacements. I mean it’s almost like not having a car at all, except you have a car.
I have no doubts about electric cars being nice or “the future”, but the price of these things is still a problem.
A (reasonably) new one with the range I need (~400km+) costs way more than I care to spend. That is partly because batteries still cost too much, but also very much because they still have a tendancy to gatekeep larger range figures for use in luxury cars.
And getting older second hand is still too much a questionmark in terms of how much of a chance there be you’ll end up having to fork over big for a new battery or motor and/or write it off prematurely.
Another problem is that I also have no way to charge it at home and would be fully at the mercy of public charging infrastructure. And generally speaking as a taller man, I feel some of them can also be quite lacking in terms of interior space.
Depends what you mean by “better” I suppose. Riding a horse is more enjoyable for me. Car is more efficient for long distance travel. I pretty much never drive a car for pleasure though.
EV’s are great! We save so much time and effort not having to cheat on emissions testing this way.
I’d love to go back to horses, though.
What does this headline even mean?
Are electric horses better than gas powered horses or what?
Hell yeah, electric horses!
Electric engines are better than horses
Electric horses are better than engines
Even the Empire knows that!
Henry Ford once said somethimg like: if i had asked people what theh wanted, they would’ve said faster horses.
Yeah, it’s phrased in a weird way.
He is saying that when cars were becoming popular, lots of people insisted that horses were better. Over time, basically everyone realized that cars are better.
Now electric cars are becoming popular, although lots of people insists that ICE cars are better.
He is saying that over time, people against electric cars will change their mind, just like the horse-people did.
Cars started becoming popular around 1885, and people started to change their mind (specifically because the vehicles improved massively, not just because they were wrong initially) in maybe 1910?
Tesla made them popular in what? 2017? so we should see enough improvements for widespread adoption by 2040
everyone has known evs are just better for some time now. the real obstacle to switching isn’t the charging network or cost. it’s oil and gas lobbying and oil and gas subsidies.
stop all oil subsidies today. stop the big oil lobbyists. then let’s see how fast the switch happens
I don’t know about that. There are many people in this thread who have clearly never owned an EV making all kinds of false statements about them. Unless oil and gas companies are sending bots to Lemmy now I think people just don’t understand EVs.
I think oil and gas companies are responsible for a lot of that misunderstanding though. For example, you think the average person would be concerned about how heavy EVs are without someone pushing that narrative?
Politicians too, and reactionary streamers jumping on the outrage bandwagon. There’s so much misinformation that even many skeptical people fall for it.
Obviously there are still shortcomings, no one is claiming otherwise. But there are far fewer limits than popular culture believes, and even the most aggressive (US) mandates left decades to overcome them
Three times I read “cats are like horses”, and was wracking my brain trying to figure out the analogy…
Literally every single person that I talked to that seriously tried an EV (like, as a daily driver for some time, not just the rental you had for a day) said they were never going back to combustion engines.
I disagree. I have had an EV since 2018 and I can honestly say I never want another one. My next vehicles going forward will be ICE 100%.
I’m also going to make sure that they are older and have little to no infotainment / internet connected systems.
A sub year 2000. Maybe a nice Accord or Jeep.
I’m over this dystopian nightmare.
If you can find a Saab from before GM bought em that’s still in good condition… *chef’s kiss* perfection.
Saab reminds me of an old 80s movie named ‘Moving’ with Richard Pryor.
Is that the one where he goes crazy and like hijacks the moving truck with his stuff in it?
press Y to doubt.
What do you think of the Slate truck? While I’m not interested in a truck, the simplification and lack of gadgets appeal to me enough that I may consider it anyway
Never heard of it. Up until the Tesla, I have been driving mostly Hondas since the mid 90s. If I could find a nice late 90s Accord, I would be set.
It sounds like your problems aren’t with EVs. It sounds like your problems are with any modern car.
Both. But I rather fill up anytime for 2 mins than having to plan out my charging and waiting 45 mins. This is my biggest gripe.
The spyware, while a big concern, is secondary to my refueling schedule.
Where do you drive that 45 minute fillups mid-travel are necessary? Surely that is rare at least.
The car In considering to get charges from 10 to 80 in 12 minutes. 10 to 90 in 17 minutes. On a fast charger, obviously (400kw+).
You’re driving a pretty old EV at this point. EV charging speeds have improved significantly. Also there are PHEVs now, why not split the difference?
I have no idea what PHEV means. Sorry.
Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle. it has a gas engine and an ev motor. the ev gets charged through regenerating breaking our through a charger. you get the best of both worlds.
Except for the maintenance of an ICE car.
You sure have strong opinions for someone who knows almost nothing about the topic
I know more about the topic than you do.
Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle. Sometimes called “Extended Range Electric Vehicles”. TLDR: has a smallish battery you can plug in and charge that gives you something like 30 to 50 miles of range. Then a gas engine to use when the battery is low.
It’s a good option for anyone who has limited daily driving and the ability to charge overnight. Sadly they’re pretty rare. People will complain about “paying for 2 drivetrains” but cost-wise and feature-wise they make a lot of sense for people with occasional needs to drive longer distances.
If you search on cars.com it’s a filter option under “fuel type”. For my zip code there’s currently 3.9K hybrid, 2.4K electric and only 19(!) plug-in hybrid listed.
Extended range electric vehicles are not the same as PHEVs. EREVs have a single drive train, which is all electric, with a gasoline generator that can charge the battery while still driving as a secondary energy source. They can get ranges that exceed regular ICE vehicles even.
What were you driving, a 2013 Bolt?
EVs charge at 200kW now, not 40.
Sadly a first year model 3.
I have one of those and it happily does 250 kW at supported chargers. Takes me 20 minutes or so to go from 15% to 80%.
Double the emissions and half of the efficiency. Good choice.
Is it the drive train you have a problem with or the software? Because I think you just dislike new cars, not electric cars. In which case keep an eye out for the Slate EV
Nice, first I’ve heard of Slate. Privacy-focused EV and looks like they offer customizable trucks and SUVs.
Edit:
Looking at it further, it appears it’s a pick-up truck with an optional SUV conversion kit. I like the tinkerer aspect of it, but the “SUV” would have 2 doors instead of 4, which is certainly not ideal. It’s already a pain in the ass to strap a child into a car seat with 4 doors. I’d also be curious about the passenger safety of those riding in the back seat with regard to how securely the rear roof and frame are attached. I also wonder how this vehicle will get around the U.S. law coming into effect in 2027 where vehicles must have a kill switch. Overall, it seems like a $20k truck would be compelling, but the SUV concept needs more work.
Meanwhile my kids are at college. I’ll take that two door suv because most of the year it’ll be just me. Actually I’m hoping the seats are easily removable so most of the year i can leave them out and just have a wide open cargo/dog/camping area
Speculation but …… some of the pictures are a bit awkward looking, leading me to speculate there is no real frame on the back, just the structure from the pickup cab. Maybe that “roll bar” is sufficient for back seat passengers too
seems like a $20k truck would be compelling
they won’t be $20K, or even $25K.
It’s the waiting 45 minutes to charge that I hate.
There are newer models that can charge to 80% in 15 min. It will probably take a while until fast chargers are widespread, but this is where things are going.
That won’t stop battery degradation.
Yeah, it won’t.
ICE engines also need oil changes, transmission fluid, headgaskets,belts.
I agree that modern “it’ll spy on you” car software sucks ass. The actual battery and charging tech is way way better than 2018 though. No one has to stop for 45 minutes.
Yea and I can do my own maintenance. That’s another factor that sucks about EV. You can’t even do any work yourself.
Oh look, a shell representative
don’t you just charge overnight most of the time?
that’s what most poeple do
Condos generally won’t let you have chargers. HOA hate everyone.
Not everyone can afford the boomer American dream of detached housing.
then why buy an electric car when OP knew full well charging was going to be troublesome?
This is a big argument against EV mandates that several U.S. states have proposed. Where the fuck do people in apartments and condos charge?
The excuses by EV supporters don’t cut it either.
Yea, would be nice if I had my own house to add a charger to. I rent and have to use communal chargers.
Ok so you bought an electric car knowing full well you were not able to charge it at will at night (and I assume nowhere in your regular daily routine, like at work) and now complain about that?
I’m from Canada and I hate I bought a giant bikini collection but bikini season is only 1 month here… therefore, bikinis suck!
I didn’t buy it. It was gifted to me. I didn’t know anything about EV. After having used it now for 8 years, I know I never want another EV ever again.
Ok, searching for the perfect hairy dude in a bikini in snow picture as a humorous reply, means I now have a browser history no one can ever see …… and I didnt find one that was funny
If Slate makes a reliable vehicle from a new model from a new company, it will be an industry first.
They should stop with that touch screen crap, always connected to the internet spyware bullshit, but they are putting that everywhere now not just EVs.
We will soon be in the siutuation where if you want an old car without that crap you can’t even go into the larger eu cities anymore, because the engine will be too polluting.
There really is a market for cars without that crap. As long as it brings me and my family to destination safely I don’t care how it is propelled.
My first vehicle ever was a 1987 Suzuki Samurai JX and I regret losing it to this day. I have not been able to match it with any subsequent vehicle I’ve owned.
Yeah, I drive an EV and will never go back to gas.
I mean maybe if I had a project car or something but even then my thoughts drift towards how I might swap an electric drivetrain…
We need to separate the feeling of driving from practicality. EVs are pleasant to drive for sure. Having to plan your trips around charging is annoying, there isn’t really much progress there.
The only reason I want a car is to do spontaneous trips to less populated areas. I already have range anxiety, I top up as soon as I’m below 1/3 of the tank. Batteries make it worse.I can’t share that feeling. My country has a law that every parking garage and parking lot must have chargers and often a fast charger is installed. I really have to go a few countries over to a place that’s not full of chargers.
you always leave with a full charge as you can charge at home overnight, so that helps
If you’re rich enough to have a house where you can charge at home, sure. If you’re in an apartment you’re probably out of luck there.
Sorry, but can’t relate. Had that feeling for the first few trips until the first one where we drove so much more efficiently that we deliberately did not take the first planned stop. I rode shotgun, so I then looked for alternative spots to charge, just to see that there are so many in my country that having planned those routes in the first place literally doesn’t make sense.
Since then we just drive. Once we get below 50 km remaining range, we check some map app for the next charger. Like we did with gas stations.
Also, coming from practicality… it’s just so nice not to have to use gas stations. Like, you usually just always start whatever you do with a full battery because you just charge it overnight. No gas stops on my commute is quite practical.
It’s ok if u can’t relate, different people and places have different needs. Where I live there are areas where if you don’t fill your tank, you won’t make it to the next fuel stop. And no, the trees don’t have charging cables hanging off them. If you can do it that’s awesome, but they don’t work for people in rural cold climates quite yet! I’d love to have an “EV” hybrid thing with a smaller battery and a diesel on board generator, zero range anxiety and bonus points if the generator is an old mechanical diesel that can run veggie oil or used oil from my other shit boxes or various biofuels. Sure it won’t be as clean as a true EV but I bet it would be more efficient than a gas car.
Having to plan your trips around charging is annoying, there isn’t really much progress there.
Do people do this? Sure I was anxious when I first got my EV, but the reality is very different. I try to remember to click the charge limit on my app from the usual 80% to 100% the night before but that’s all the planning I ever do.
Do other cars not have this integrated into trip planning? When I use the GPS to set a route, it just automatically adds waypoints for charging when necessary. I never need to think about it. Maybe I haven’t gone rural enough yet, I don’t know
And trip planning has never called for more than 20 minutes at a supercharger, trying to keep me on the steep part of the charging curve.
Where’s the beef?
Oh no, I have to stop for 15 minutes after four hours of driving, every time I drive more than four hours at a time.
I have anxiety right now just thinking about the next time I have to spend that 15 minutes in a couple months from now.
Do you think I can save up all the times I don’t stop for gas between now and then and use that as some sort of credit towards that time?
You wish it was 15 min
Surprisingly it is. The trip planner on my car tries to keep you on the steep part of the charging curve and has never planned more than 20 minutes.
It’s actually kind of annoying since you want to do something while waiting but it’s not long enough
- one long stop I walked a couple times around Walmart but didn’t have time to shop
- another long stop the time was up before we found the food court so I had to stay longer
- I witnessed true southern hospitality where i tried to walk a couple blocks while waiting at a longer stop, but some business opened their gate to let me cut through
It’s actually kind of annoying since you want to do something while waiting but it’s not long enough
You know you’re the boss of the car and not the other way around right? :p
Yeah, often it’s shorter. Sometimes you don’t need another 70% battery to finish your trip.
I drive an EV, and planning around driving habits is simply not a thing for me. It’s hooked up to its 230v charger and will be ready at 100% charge every morning. I drive the 50km to work and back for about 25% worth of charge. There’s a few public chargers on the way to work and almost anywhere I care to go. Range anxiety is waaay overblown in my opinion.
Range anxiety is waaay overblown in my opinion.
By media funded by gas and oil
Yeah but it’s also easy to understand. Even knowing it’s overblown, I had some amount of range anxiety until I took a long road trip and found out how easy it was. It’s also a familiarity thing: people won’t lose the anxiety until they experience the reality
If you can charge at home yeah it’s fine, otherwise you’re fucked. I had an ID3 and could only charge at work or at an expensive charger at a gas station.
I had to plan charging at work otherwise I couldn’t decide on a whim to go see my mum on Sundays. The itinerary took around 60% of the battery in summer and only one charging station in between, which is not working half the time. So either I take 30-60 minutes before going to charge (hoping the charger is working and available), or I can throw the dice and hope the chargers on the way works this time.
It’s not so much range anxiety than the infrastructure around me not being enough.
yeah i would not recommend EVs to anyone who can’t charge at home. we are just not there yet with infrastructure.
Haha, yeah very different situations ……
I had to pick my kid up from college and the itinerary takes about 60% of my battery round trip
- I try to remember to click the charge limit on my app from 80% to 100% the night before. Charging at home is wonderful, and this gives me cushion to take detours
- I try to charge at work since it’s free but there’s always a queue so I can’t always
- if my battery runs low (it did once, when I spent the weekend there playing tourist), there’s superchargers in that town and a few miles down both possible highways, plus multiple places on those highways.
- I’ve never seen a non-working Tesla supercharger, and I’ve never had to look for any other brand since they are so convenient and everywhere
Range anxiety is waaay overblown
in my opinionfor how you use your vehicle.People use there vehicles in a lot of different ways. That’s why there’s a bunch of different size, body style, and powertrain options available for vehicles.
I want an EV but the prices are brutal :(
Look at lightly used and don’t buy the “battery life scary” bullshit.
If I could afford one and could somehow figure out a way to charge it at home so I wasn’t relying on public charges then I would already have an EV.
The trouble is at least in my country the infrastructure is just not there, there will be like two chargers in a supermarket car park for 500 plus cars, and the markup on electricity is ridiculous.
For a lot of people EVs are just not practical yet, the issues that people have with them aren’t really to do with the cars themselves but all of the ancillary stuff surrounding them. E.g. my local mechanic has explicitly told me he can’t do EVs because he would have to buy all sorts of software products to be able to perform maintenance on them. That’s got to change that’s a ridiculous artificial lockout from the companies.
Also quite a lot of people don’t want a sporty car EV they would like other car types, and those don’t seem to really be provided by the manufacturers yet.
The trouble is at least in my country the infrastructure is just not there
When I read that I just assumed you’d live in some developing country or an extremely sparsely populated one like Canada.
But… You live in the UK?
I liked 1 of the electric bikes I tried, and Ill admit its probably objectively better in terms of practicality, but I kinda prefer gas.
For what exactly
seeing as it’s about bikes, probably the noise
For riding, perfectly linear torque without a clutch is kind of boring. Charging was kinda complicated due to 2 competing charging networks and poor infrastructure, Also I’m unclear on how to get one fixed, whereas anyone in this country can fix a honda.
Fortunately they need fixing way less often
Maintenance is another huge benefit of EVs.
Reduced maintenance, yes. But I haven’t (yet) found an independent mechanic that can work on my Bolt, so the little maintenance I need has to be done at the dealer.
I still took that deal, but it has room for improvement.
Yeah I will never go back.
I still have my ICE car for my kids, and have been tempted to upgrade them …… but there’s no point spending money to replace a perfectly functional car only 9 years old, and most importantly just sits while they are away at school
don’t wait, upgrade the kids already.
Assuming the phrasing is intentional, I love it. LoL
But taking it more seriously it has been really tempting. But if get one kid a car I need to get both kids a car to be fair. If each kid has a car I run out of excuses to not let them take it to college. It becomes a whole thing for a whole lot of money
I get the sentiment, and I’ve said it before but when my current daily goes, an EV of some sort will likely take its place. Even given the poor charging infrastructure where I am, mathematically it is clearly the sensible choice.
But for the things I can’t measure with a calculator, I’ll have at least one ICE vehicle for a long as it’s feasible to do so. There are boxes that EVs - and I’ve spent plenty of time with them - simply don’t tick for me.
I hope to never buy another. We have an ICE minivan as a second car and it compliments our compact EV well. But 10/10 I prefer driving and maintaining the EV. I always knew EVs were quick, but I didn’t expect how quiet they would be. I can actually hear my music.
Which compact EV do you have?
Chevy Bolt - first American car I’ve ever owned and we absolutely love it.
Our neighbor just got one I think. In tennis ball green/yellow. It’s cute.
There’s an active onwers forum for these on Reddit if you’d like to see what more people think.
Allow me to be the first.
I drive an EV now. It’s super convenient not having to fuel up once a week. It’s nice just charging at home overnight. Long distance trips are not so convenient, but doable. The money savings on gas is significant, but tire usage seems to be higher, and depreciation is higher than any vehicle I’ve owned. There’s the looming thought of having to replace the battery someday.
More than anything, I’m tired of cars feeling like spaceships, and EVs are among the most space shippy.
My next car will likely be an efficient but fun four door ICE hatchback (think European sensibility) from six or seven years ago if I can find one with low miles.
No shade on those loving EVs, I think it’s great that the majority of people are moving or would like to move away from ICE vehicles. But so long as they feel like spaceships to me and depreciate like room temperature milk, there’s room in my garage for an efficient gasoline car.
The rapid depreciation sucks, but I accept it because I want EVs to be affordable for everyone and it makes used ones affordable for people of average to low means. I’m willing to take that hit. I also don’t plan to sell mine because I love driving it and gas prices are never going to be acceptable to me again.
My partner loves their Civic. They will wait all day for me to get back from work so they can take the fake Mustang though. I still can’t convince them to sell the Civic, but we’re putting maybe 1000 miles on it a year now, peobsbly a lot less, versus about 21,000 on the Mach-E
I don’t have an EV, but I can imagine it would be nice to not have to go to the gas station once a week.
I’ve had an EV for a couple of years and had to rent a gas car on a trip recently. I was prepared for the expensive fuel, I wasn’t prepared for how shit it was to drive.
See, an EV’s electric motor and (usually) single reduction gear means you get basically the same acceleration between 5 km/h and 120 km/h. You can put your foot down slightly and forget you’re accelerating because it feels just like sitting in a stationary car on a hill. How far you push the accelerator is how much acceleration you get. Unless you’re getting wheel spin or you’re at the car’s power limit, that’s all there is to it.
A gasser has an engine with different performance depending on RPM and a gearbox that provides different performance based on which gear it’s in and changes according to it’s own logic. You’re just used to this when you drive one all the time, but for me it was awful the way I’d put my foot down and get nothing, then engine noise, then some power, then a lurch and more power and another lurch and less power. The accelerator pedal is a suggestion, mostly disconnected from what the car actually chooses to do.
an EV’s electric motor and (usually) single reduction gear means you get basically the same acceleration between 5 km/h and 120 km/h
Same torque, not same acceleration. Air and roll resistance have something to say too.
The car increases power as the vehicle’s speed increases, so you really do get the same acceleration force. That’s trivial to do when the drivetrain isn’t wildly flailing around.
That’s not how things work.
I feel like that whenever I’m driving my parents petrol car, when I’m used to my diesel car. It’s exactly the same car it’s just got a different engine, but it does totally different performance.
Yes! About a year ago we went up a very curvy hill with the kids that has, in the past, always made everyone feel queasy, even the driver to some extent. But this year, it didn’t at all. I think it was because we were driving an EV, and without all of the hurky-jerky of the nonexistent transmission, it was way smoother.
I charge mine 80% of the time off the solar panels on my roof here in Australia. Making your own fuel is quite the thing.
Another 10% is overnight on a cheap tariff
and the other 10% public charging on longer trips.
What is your view on hybrids?
Pay for two mobility solutions when you only need one… and, as a negative bonus, you’re still reliant on paying for oil and gas.
Yeah I feel like hybrids are a terrible solution from an ownership perspective. You still have to get gas and do maintenance on a gas engine and all that comes with it. All so you can maybe road trip with a little less range anxiety once a year?
I feel like they’re a great solution …. For the aughts (00’s) and tens (10’s), but we should be past them. They had their time (even if few bought them then) and it’s time to phase them out for EVs. Sure, some vehicles and some locations aren’t yet suited for EVs so they should stay a little longer on the hybrids they should already be using, but most vehicles and place need to be turning to EVs
I really think emotions and politics got in the way of the better technology back then, and now as well. Now is not the time to be ramping up the technology of last decade
Hey, that’s not fair. You also get to drag around the extra weight from having both power sources, which lowers efficiency!
Hybrids are consistently among the most reliable vehicles you can buy.
They add some components, but they also take away some troublesome parts: https://www.torquenews.com/1083/its-whats-missing-matters-why-toyota-hybrids-are-so-much-more-reliable-other-brands-vehicles
you’re still reliant on paying for oil and gas
You’re reducing your consumption by roughly 20-30%. Given that this reduction comes at a low cost and retains the ubiquitous fast refueling of gas cars, it’s an excellent choice for many people.
The entire strait of Hormuz mess only affects like 20% of the worlds oil and look at the effect it has. Imagine the opposite happening with mass adoption of hybrids (and continued growth in EVs)
Toyota hybrids are reliable compared to other ICE vehicles. But EVs are even more reliable. Also you still have to do ICE maintenance on hybrids like oil changes.
I agree hybrids still have their place, but i think many more people can switch to full EVs instead of going hybrid. they are just wary of change.
Not OP, but conventional hybrids are alright. Plug-In hybrids are kind of a waste, and really only see benefits in very niche situations.
. Plug-In hybrids are kind of a waste, and really only see benefits in very niche situations.
The situation where you commute 25 miles or less, where national average is 16 miles.
Just get an EV then. Why lug around a gas motor that you don’t need?
In contrast to an extra 250 miles worth of batteries that you don’t need?
yes, extra battery capacity does not require extra maintenance or fossil fuel like an ICE engine does.
You can get a shorter range EV if that fits your needs. Gas engine just adds weight and complexity.
That’s good, until you need to take a longer trip. At which point you can either have the extra batteries or a gas engine. There are arguments for either solution.
For those times where you do need to go 1000mi without wasting time at a charge station for hours
Plug-in hybrids fail because of people. They could cover most or all of a typical commute on battery, but there was that recent study saying people don’t use them that way. If you’re going to treat it like an ICE car, it’s just an ICE car with more weight, that costs more.
the problem with PHEVs is the battery is very small, which is a longevity concern. Batteries lose charge capacity based on how many charging cycles they go through. So if you are discharging most of the battery on a daily commute you’re going to kill that battery’s capacity within a few years (like a cell phone).
I like the idea of a plug in hybrid.
But there’s a lot more to a car for me. I need it to be affordable. I need replacement parts to also be affordable, and I need it to be user serviceable.
This is why my 20 year old Honda, and my wife’s 13 year old Lexus are both ideal.
Mine is a Honda, which means parts are everywhere, even in the deep deep south. It’s easy to repair basically any issue with it. I have no car note, and liability insurance is $32 a month for it.
Hers is a Lexus, which is for all intents, a Toyota. Which also means parts are ubiquitous. I swapped a water pump in it over a weekend. And I had never done that before. Sure, I’ve always done basic maintenance, but until about 3 years ago, I didn’t trust myself to do anything more in depth.
When my previous car (also a Honda) had a head gasket failure, I swapped it. Took me several months because I was learning as I went. But I did it.
Why? I had no choice. Couldn’t afford another car, and couldn’t afford the 2 to 4 hour labor rates a $20 gasket needed. What would’ve cost 500 to 600 bucks if I’d had someone else do it, wound up costing me less than $150. Had the head machined at a local machine shop, and that less than 150 bucks included that cost.
As I’ve heard my entire life, “po folks gots po ways”
The two examples of repair you used can’t happen on an EV. Of course any EV can be maintained DIY.
You need to look at the total cost of ownership. EVs often cost less than comparable ICE vehicles because of savings in fuel, maintenance, and repairs.
TCO doesn’t mean squat when you can’t afford to buy the car.
I paid 3k cash for my car.
I drive a hybrid, it’s identical to the previous car except it uses 60% less fuel. $2000-3000+ a year savings.
Americans need to pay more attention to what is going on in Iran. Trump is draining US reserves to keep prices low, and there has never been a supply crisis this bad in history. We are months away from gas line ups and flag systems, like the 70s fuel crisis, except this crisis is far worse. The shit hits the fan after the mid-terms, by design.
Hybrids should be the default for gasoline vehicles. There may be some specialized cases where hybrids don’t make sense, but if you look at vehicles that have hybrid and non-hybrid options the hybrid typically sees a fuel consumption reduction of 20-30%. The cost increase is not so much and quickly pays for itself.
It’s also an easy way to add AWD if you only need a light-duty AWD system.
We know they’re better, we just can’t afford them.
Better analogies would be automatic vs manual transmission, power steering vs not, and CarPlay/Google Maps vs a paper atlas.
I think a lot of people know you have to pay to charge and that charging can take nearly an hour and they don’t see the point. I didn’t know what it cost to charge an EV before. I saw an article yesterday where someone charged, if I read it correctly, 89% of their capacity (they were down to 11%), for $13.99. Get a petrol driver to figure out their capacity, multiply it by 0.89, then multiply that by the cost of petrol in their area. Then convert to US Dollars and see which is cheaper. Guarantee it’s electric.
Of course, that leaves another variable. Batteries, being consumable devices. How much is the EV’s battery to replace (including labour) and how long does the OEM part last?
This is a new kind of propaganda. Most of that is reasonable except 15 minutes is not “close to an hour” to charge.
Your hour might apply to one model that’s more than a decade old. It has never taken a Tesla that long to charge, and it doesn’t take that long for any other modern model to charge.
It isn’t propaganda. The site I mentioned that showed me the price said 41 minutes charging. Maybe “close to an hour” is an exaggeration and I apologise if you read it as anti-EV propaganda. Read my comments, I’m actually kinda pro-EV here. The thing is, I don’t own one. I’m cautiously optimistic about the future, and that’s the truth as best I can tell it.
I will grant you I’ve heard of faster charging. I was just going off of what I read. Which IIRC was covering a newer electric vehicle — the new Subaru?
I guess you’re right. My Hyundai just charges faster than most.
Also contributing to the experience is that I pretty much never need to charge 10 to 80%. I haven’t taken it on a 7+ hour drive yet where I’d need that. For 5 hours I can generally just stop for ten minutes and that’s enough. So these 30 minute stops sound weird to me.
I think it’s newer EVs charge faster. Fast charging was originally a premium feature in smartphones. Then they all did it. Then it came out that iPhones (and some Android phones) charged faster with an iPad (better) charger. Then year after year they got faster and faster.
Faster charging can degrade batteries faster, but also newer batteries guard against it better.
The newer the battery/charging tech, the better things are.
Don’t forget the infrastructure! The average American is within 5 minutes of a gas station, but charging stations are very few and far between (you can’t even cross certain states with one charge because of the gap).
Charging stations are getting more and more common.
I was reading that a lot of gas stations are transitioning from “stop and go” (or “stop and convenience store and go”) to a more “rest area” format. As in, there will be things to do there while your EV charges. Brands like Sheetz and Wawa and Buc’ees that already provide food (and, by some accounts, it’s better than your typical “gas station” fare) are looking into other things to keep you hanging around. Before, gas stations wanted you to leave ASAP so you free up a pump for another customer. But now if you have to take an hour to charge, they want to keep you fed and entertained so your time is not wasted. (But, by the same token, they’re going to want you to vacate your charging port once you’re done, so another customer can charge. Imagine waiting not only to charge, but for a charger to open up.)
Hopefully it improves as time goes on - from what I can gather EVs in the US mainly make sense if you’re a homeowner or live in an apartment that has a charging station on site.
(I wouldn’t be able to own one and reliably maintain charge right now as a college student, for example)
I’ve never understood the gas station thing. Unless you’re along a highway, why would people stop? Charging does have different characteristics than refueling, so we shouldn’t expect the same behavior to be convenient. As hone charging and destination charging get more widespread, you never need to go to a local gas station again. Some of them may be worried about extinction, and they should be
Yeah, charging in apartments, HOAs, street parking is much less developed but it is making progress finally. Part of it is up to states to jumpstart, through building codes and incentives
I wouldn’t be able to … reliably maintain charge right now as a college student
While i’ve never seen actual data, the colleges I’ve visited were among the first “landlords” to add EV chargers. As a student, getting a campus parking pass is harder than finding charging once you do
Last year at family weekend for my youngest, I was annoyed at having to stay at a distant hotel, when those along campus had chargers
I’m definitely not against charging as a concept - it’s just in my current circumstances it’s not viable. Without doxxing myself, the current college I am in does not have charging at any of their parking garages or at the dorms.
What state(s) would that be? I just checked PlugShare, and it shows plenty of fast charging stations even through rural states like Kansas and Montana.
I guess Alaska would count, but even that’s pretty well covered from Anchorage to Fairbanks
Wendover covered the issue in this video he made 5 years ago (so maybe it got solved), but you could not drive from Denver, CO to Dallas, TX from either direction. The maximum range of cars on the market combined with the lack of changing stations along the way meant it was impossible without getting stranded in the middle.
Many EV models have just started hitting price parity with comparable combustion cars with the same range
And batteries are STILL getting cheaper
That’s on top of studies showing EV batteries are generally surviving longer than projected (often thanks to modern battery management systems reducing wear)
That’s awesome. We’ve needed increases and advancements in battery since smartphones got popular almost 20 years ago (thanks iPhone) but EVs seem a bit more important, especially since that EV is also likely charging your phones while you drive.
And yes, I’ve heard that over time, battery prices and EV prices have come down.
The next person to reply to me mentions Americans and, more relating to your comment than theirs, I was just reading about how despite how Tesla had to push back against the gas-powered car industry to get a foothold, now that they’re established, they’re doing the same thing to keep competition out, namely China’s BYD, which is “threatening” to undercut everybody, so they don’t want that. If China can sell an EV for $10k less than the Americans are selling theirs (and Elon Musk, who isn’t exactly American, not that it’s about nationality per se), then Americans can certainly sell theirs for less and get more people buying. Apparently at this point it’s cheaper and more profitable to fight competition than it would be to allow competition in the industry. To be clear though, it’s not just Tesla and BYD, it’s Tesla and all the other automakers fixing the price and BYD is saying you can get an EV for much less than that. Fortunately, more and more people are listening to BYD. Cheaper EVs is what we need to get more people driving them.
The used market is not there right know. Those EVs last longer and have had a lot of progress in the last years. That means that you do not have that many cheap used offerings as you have with petrol cars.
Batteries, being consumable devices. How much is the EV’s battery to replace (including labour) and how long does the OEM part last?
People really need to think of petrol motors as consumption parts. Your engine will need a lot of mainenance and it also has a lifespan. That lifespan is shorter than that of a battery
People can keep ICE engines running a very long time.
You might have to replace the plugs, timing belt, pistons, valves, rods, gasket, camshaft, crankshaft, sleeves, and block, but the engine? It can last a really long time.
The gas car goes a lot further on 1 tank.
Electrics use .25-.35 KWh per mile, if you’re paying 24 cents per kwh, thats 6-10 cents per mile.
A car that gets 35 mpg and pays 4.2USD/gallon spends 12 cents per mile on fuel.
Clarification: in many areas, cats are expected to last so many miles or kilometers per tank/charge so you can’t be stranded between refills/charges. I think it’s 300 miles but I’m not sure. Less efficient vehicles, thus, need larger gas tanks or batteries.
So while, in theory, some cars will be able to get more miles before they die from running out of gas or charge, the consumer can typically expect a reasonable minimum.
Also, call it dystopian, but a great option would be to charge at work. Charge slowly over the course of a shift. They take it right out of your check. Pre-tax if you’re lucky (I’ve heard government jobs can do this? Not sure about private sector). Then you just don’t worry about it because it happens when you’re not there. You just always have charge. Charge a little every day or all at once on Friday, either way. As opposed to charging at home, I mean, for people who can’t install the charger at home for whatever reason.
Charging at home or work would be great. From my perspective, the biggest obstacle to EV ownership is road trips. I just did a trip last week that was 2000 miles round-trip. Having to stop multiple times a day for charging would be a real challenge, not just for current lack of infrastructure, but also the time spent charging. Fuel stations are everywhere and I can have a full tank in <5 minutes. Until EV charging approaches these numbers, I don’t see myself owning an EV. Although I guess there is the option to rent a traditional vehicle for those periods, I usually make multiple 1000+ mile trips per year, so those costs aren’t insubstantial.
Average residential electric cost is $0.18/kwh, and the average new car fuel economy is 29mpg combined then yes, if you inflate the cost of electricity by 25% and reduce the fuel cost of the car by 17% then the ICE car is nearly as cost effective as an EV.
Where is it 18 cents? I’ve never heard of it being that cheap anywhere. I picked numbers that matched my experience and were easy to math.
My electricity is $0.09/kwh, or about $0.15/kwh when you factor in the bullshit fees AEP slaps on…
I also just looked up the average residential cost of electricity…
Just did the math on my whole bill. My actual price per kWh is $0.19, so more than 18, waaaaay less than 24, I also pay extra for 100% green power generation and I live in an area that is known for its electric utility corruption.
Your analogies make no sense either.
I presume the headline is alluding to how eventually people accepted cars are better than horses but then your “better” analogies make no sense.
Auto vs manual, neither is “better”, it depends more on situation and personal preference. I’d take a manual over auto any day personally.
Power steering vs not again depends on application. I’d rather have no power steering in a little sports car and get more positive feedback but would rather power steering on some heavy unwieldly vehicle.
A map vs sat nav bullshit. I’m guessing more people would argue the latter being “better” in this case but there are plenty of people who would rather read a map and know exactly where they are rather than blindly follow shit.
So yeh I really don’t understand what you are driving at with your analogies and don’t think they work for the context unless I’m misunderstanding :)
there are plenty of people who would rather read a map and know exactly where they are rather than blindly follow shit.
Ok Boomer. Following a sat nav is not blindly following. Does your map predict the future? Tell you where construction and traffic is?
No, they make sense, and I thank you for being transparent with your biases. That’s not common online, but it’s a standard I strive for and respect.
The same kind of person who prefers manual transmission would prefer a gas engine. Let’s look at Mustang drivers. Nuff Said. (For those who don’t get it, Google “1969 Mustang Eleanor” and “Mustang EV”. One is a work of art. The other is a crime against automobile style or at least should never have been called Mustang — would have been a great opportunity to revive the Ford Galaxy brand.)
I agree with most of what you’ve been saying, but I’m going to gently push back on the Mustang EV. I think it’s one of the best looking EVs out there and it would be the one that I would choose (or the Subie EV because I love my Crosstrek). I do agree that it probably should not have been called a Mustang though because it doesn’t really look like one and there’s a whole culture thing behind the Mustang.
I would be thrilled if there was a manual shift EV. I know it doesn’t make sense and I don’t care if it doesn’t really do what combustion engines do, but I loved driving stick. I was sad to give up my old stick, but I went for the car with much higher safety ratings. It doesn’t even have to be real, just give me that feeling of driving manual would be great. And with a proper stick shifter too, not the silly paddle shifters.
No one cares about the name behind a car. The original mustang was a high volume piece of shit car that only resonated with Boomers.
If you’re looking at fast charging (1 hour or less) on a regular basis, you’re doing it wrong. The vast majority of charging should happen while the car is already parked, using level 2 AC charging. This means when you park at home, with, etc, you take just a few seconds to connect a charger, then walk away. When you come back ~8 hours later, you take a few seconds to unplug before leaving. This approach, believe it or not, means I spend less time dealing with fuel than if I had a gas car.
Plus, AC charging is much cheaper, and more reliable. These chargers are very simple devices, that just do a bit of monitoring and negotiation. They deliver raw 240v to the car, which has its own AC-DC converter.
DC fast charging is much more expensive - $14 for a full DC charge is very unlikely. That’s because DCFC stations are very big, complex installations. As such, they also have parts fail on a regular basis. DCFC is often more expensive than gas, but again should only be used on rare occasions.
As for batteries failing, it’s about as often as a gas engine fails. IOW, it’s extremely rare until the car is EOL anyway. Battery degradation is typically 85-90% health remaining at 100k miles.
Have a 2011 Lexus ES330 (gas, V6), and a 2013 Nissan Leaf (EV, ~60 miles of range). Both my wife and I prefer driving the Leaf around town because it’s just plain fun. We keep the Lexus for long trips, but could honestly get by with a rental if we ever needed to.
And they won’t need to cheat their emissions tests with evs
Also article quotes an executive but no labor leaders
The Car & The Horse:
A Short Tale a Djin Once Told Me (VOL I)
Once upon a time there was a human with a horse. It wasn’t a poor human, but it was a simple one.
One day whilst plowing fields, forcing a horse to plow a course…(“Jim”, we shall name horse) thae human stumbled upon a brass lamp, ornately carved & brilliant to witness.
As the human was furiously rubbing the lamp with it’s sleeve, Jim noticed some text on the bottom of the lamp and imagined what it might sound like…
“Neigh…”, the human heard, curiously
BUT this isn’t a tale of humans. It is a tale of horses and electric cars. The last of my tales dwarfed the original story, thus causing OP to delete the entire post. However, that story isn’t gone forever. I still have it. This is simply a different one.
And this is a story about a horse.
FOR MORE HORSE STORY, INSERT COIN
FOR MORE HORSE STORY, INSERT COIN
Oh great, the coin judt scratched my phone screen. You owe me a horse story!
The scratch is simply a metaphor.
This is a horse story…
…A found letter story, in the form of a Ken Burns documentary!!
POOF
"Dear Bobert,
I have stumbled upon a majestic lamp & read the text of lamp. A genie… neigh…a Djin then appeared. When asked for my first I gurfawed “Apple”, but sadly it was an apple of knowledge. Damned Djin. Now I am on my second wish, which I have decided is “Replace horse with car”.
Please, if this is a bad wish, alert me within the next few minutes. I realize now that it is too late, as you have already received this and I have made my wish.
Alas, I lovingly await your sheep words…
Car love you, Jim The Horse The Car"
The overall technology of EV is better than ICE but that doesn’t mean every EV is better than every ICE.
Cars may be better than horses but no horse ever exploded the way a Ford Pinto would.
Ah yes, I do remember preferring the electrical horse back then.
