- cross-posted to:
- europe@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- europe@feddit.org
cross-posted from : https://lemmy.zip/post/62014061
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Good. One less thing to worry about.
Trump is such a loser
F-35 program needed to die anyway.
Except that it’s vastly better than anything else and in a peer to peer fight with a full air force the side with f35s against a side that doesn’t have stealth planes will win easily every time.
True for now. Drones have worryingly shown that things can evolve quickly lately.
If you’re interested then perun on YouTube has pretty good videos on the whole thing, but like everything else it will be both and the side with f35 and drones will always win, and the key part is that you can get a drone program going quickly while a stealth fighter or even a jet engine takes two decades.
Personally, I think the R&D times of planes and other mainstream gear takes so long, is because there isn’t genuine necessity. First and foremost, the MiC exists to enrich elite critters - actual defense of the nation is tertiary. The secondary is just to make fancy gear that looks neat for battle glamour, but lacks substance for warfare.
I suspect an actual peer-to-peer war between NATO and Dogey America would result in much faster development time. Also many failures, but necessity would force rethinking on how to produce weapons. I listen to many videos about plane development, and WW2 really stood out in how many fails there were, while the envelope constantly got pushed.
My prediction is that Europe would be much better than America when it comes to transitioning into a true war economy, because they have a less corrupted MiC to get in the way.
I hope America leaves, next 9/11 no one will be obliged to help them out.
Good. Hosting US bases just makes you a target.
No americas treaty organization.
No americas treaty organization.
Hey! What did we do? – Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc.
It’s No Americas, they’re allowed to have one.
My best breakups have been when I didn’t wait for the best or right time to break up. Because once you are there, even if you wait, you know it’s never going to be the right time; it will only fester and fester until your entirety is gradually dragged into an existential sepsis.
The hope is Congress grows a pair
The hope is americans grow a pair.
We’re a Republic, we vote in representatives. It’s their duty to represent, but currently they aren’t and need to be voted out.
“Republic, if you can keep it.” Franklin didn’t mean the congressmen, he meant you, the people.
We’re all waiting for elections, and then if that fails or he finds a way to stop it then you bet we’re all out there armed. Having a single majority in all three branches is a problem. Republicans are anti-american.
Don’t let the doorknob hit their ass on the way out.
Worst case scenario is Russia tries to take advantage of the situation and gets curb stomped by a NATO that is roughly 30% weaker but still more than powerful enough to handle the paper tiger that Russia has proven itself to be.
Trump is dead within a year, guaranteed. The GOP will fall to infighting after the cult of personality ends, and when the next president wants to clean up his mess and rejoin NATO, they can be allowed back in without the bullshit VETO that they for some reason have. They can return as an equal, not as a boss.
I kinda hope Trump lives and runs in the 2028 GOP primaries—the GOP deserves it.
Diplomats say France wants to lead the mission, exclude America and bring in India and perhaps China.
Its best option, he says, would be to redouble efforts to build the European pillar of NATO. Perhaps that would convince Mr Trump that allies are willing to take up more of the burden. More probably, it would at least start to prepare them for the daunting task of taking over NATO if Mr Trump abandons it.
New bloc goes brrrr.
Also, no thanks to this guy, who’s basically been supporting the complacency this whole time:
“I have spent the past five years telling people not to worry about Trump and NATO,” says one European diplomat in Washington, DC. “Now I am genuinely quite worried about Trump and NATO.”
No american NATO? I was calling for it way back when trump was doing the greenland threats
I called it after Helsinki 2018.
What happened then ? wasn’t born yet
You’re less than 8 years old?
56, actually. I am living in dog years
That’s ruff.
Putin told him who’s in charge, in case he somehow thought he’d be off the hook because he’s now a big man president. Then he threw out the interpreter so he could gobble Putin’s balls while he has the chance.
The rest I’ll leave to your imagination.
Oh yes, Putin’s in charge, that’s why he blew up his own pipeline, cleverly waited for Biden to be president to invade, then got Trump to attack Iran, Russia’s ally.
Does anything make sense in conspiracy land? Or is it only the other guys that are conspiracy theorists, but you are a fact-based scientist?
You’re totally wrong, he actually gave Putin a rim job.
US also needs to remember that should it choose to leave it will also need to exit all it’s European bases currently occupied under the pretext of NATO.
Good luck trying to expand your global empire of regime change without European bases and or airspace.
Maybe they will stay happy in their corner of the world torturing Cuba, Venezuela and fucking with Canada with a daily threat.
What exactly is the point of hoping for the US to stay when their contribution currently seems to boil down to blackmailing and threats of abandonment should shit really hit the fan? This sounds more like an abusive relationship than a defence treaty…
The hope is that this is just a temporary glitch and America will revert to what it has been for 250 years, for better or worse.
The Biden Administration, for instance, was viewed very favorably by NATO partners, and that was just two years ago.
The Biden Administration, for instance, was viewed very favorably
Careful. A positive comment about the Biden administration goes against the narrative.
What narrative?
1945 to date, not 250 years
Until WW2, USA was not a world power
The USA has been the largest economy in the world since 1870-1890. By 1913 they were more than twice the size of their nearest global rival. The USA has been a world power for a long time, they just used to be a bit more isolationist, they should go back to doing that.
The hope is that
this is just a temporary glitchthe US of A comes crashing down in flames even fasterAmerica can’t just go back to the way things were before Trump. Trump is a symptom of deeper systematic problems. If we try to pretend this all just goes away when he does, we’re going to find ourselves right back in the same shit in a few years when the base latches on to the next psychopath.
Because, for decades prior, the US was the military of NATO. The US pumped massive percentages of its GDP into maintaining a standing military while most of NATO focused more on social programs with comparatively minimal military spending.
And threats like russia wouldn’t attack out of fear of having to fight said militarized nation. Whereas now there is a very clear window where the nations that might stand up against them are rebuilding. “Fortunately” russia is stretched pretty far by a failed invasion of Ukraine but… go read the wikipedia article on how their previous invasions of Ukraine went.
Do you remember why NATO was founded, and why the biggest European country was mostly demilitarised, and forced to have its army limited?
Now we’re going to have to do that to USA…
If you think we ‘happened’ to keep a large standing army just because we were defending Europe.
The plain fact is we didn’t even try and reap the peace dividends following the Cold War. We doubled down and found an excuse to pad the pockets of the MIC.
If we’d shrunk down instead of maintaining all this obsolete gear, it’d be easier to be proactive to changes in warfare like drones. We wouldn’t maintain fleets of fourth gen fighters and build out our fifth gen fleets.
You maintain military production capacity by having a strong civil industrial capability.
As we learned in WW2, it doesn’t take much to convert from making cars to making tanks.
Bonus side effect: prevents us from getting embroiled in nation building or getting after commercial wet dreams for regime change when it takes 2-3 years to build up a force.
If you think we ‘happened’ to keep a large standing army just because we were defending Europe.
Where did I ever say that?
Because, for decades prior, the US was the military of NATO. The US pumped massive percentages of its GDP into maintaining a standing military while most of NATO focused more on social programs with comparatively minimal military spending.
Here ya go buddy. Here’s where you said it.
Yes… I said that the US was the military might of NATO. I did not say that was the only reason we have a truly massive military.
If all you are able to do is build tangential strawmen then… do yourself a favor and just go post on chatgpt.
The plain fact is we didn’t even try and reap the peace dividends following the Cold War.
The US did reap a peace dividend. Loads of storied US military supply companies had to close, because there were no longer infinite money for defense.
You’re right of course.
But two things I’d like to point out:
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Yes, the US WAS the military of the treaty. WAS being the important part here as the trust that made this arragement possible is heavily eroded today due to the lunatic in charge.
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You’re first paragraph is onesided and resembles the talking points of the Trump admin. The reality is more complex: The Us would have spend that money anyways as it aimed for global military domination during and after the cold war. The NATO treaty allowd to convert this alread spend money not only in hard military but also in soft power: The US gained massive multi-level influence in the member states due to the military depency and also bought their international voices (for example inside the UN) with it. It was a win-win situation with kooperative cost advantages for both sides. Not a one sided deal to the disadvantage of the US as Americans seem to be made believe by Trump and his oligarchy.
Not a one sided deal to the disadvantage of the US as Americans seem to be made believe by Trump and his oligarchy.
Where did I ever say this was a one sided deal?
You didn’t say that.
I got triggered since you only linked US military spending to european social security programs while leaving out other aspects, a reasoning which I only know from US conservatives including Trump.
If I mistook you I’m sorry.
Pointing out that the US spends massive amounts of money on military spending is just a fact. https://www.nato.int/content/dam/nato/webready/documents/finance/def-exp-2025-en.pdf is the official NATO write up of this from last year and the only countries that outspend the US (as a percentage of their GDP) tend to be the countries that are where The War will kick off Poland) or… countries with other things going on
And keep in mind that is in terms of GDP percentages and how massive the US’s economy was for most of that period.
The “conservative” talking point is not: “The US spends money on war while the EU spends money on healthcare and actually giving a shit about its population”. It is “The US spends money on war so you should do whatever we want”. Its also worth understanding that The EU did not spend that money anywhere near that altruistically but it doesn’t change the situation that the EU/NATO finds itself in.
Because when that military is increasingly likely to be the aggressor? You need to rapidly start making guns and revisiting what is required of your populace. People have exploded over Germany recently more or less codifying a standing policy but… there is a reason politicians are looking at their conscription laws.
Look. We all live in a content bubble. But if you actually want to understand the world, rather than just get angry in ways that are convenient to influencers and politicians, actually look at statistics and respond to facts. Rather than getting pissy and screaming “fake news” because you don’t’ like what you saw.
Because, to be clear, I REALLY don’t fucking like how broken the US is because of how much it spends on the military.
The first sentence very much seems to imply that.
I disagree. Simply saying that fact doesn’t imply it’s a bad thing, even though that is something we often hear from those who are anti NATO. I would expect anyone here to understand that the US benefited heavily from the arrangement, and is now losing soft power in a huge way
Its one of Trumps main anti NATO talking points, its not particularly surprising people will recognize it as that.
Totally agree, I just think it’s unlikely that anyone in this forum would be parroting a Trump talking point for the sake of it.
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Let’s remember that the US has been, by far, the richest country in the world since the world wars, largely because it stayed out of them til the ends, and issued massive loans to European countries that they continued to profit off of for decades and decades.
You talk about GDP percentage, as if every country had a similar GDP per capita, and could thus afford to spend similarly. The reality is that the US had more then enough money to both fund its military and fund its social programs, but it chose to instead fund the military and the already wealthy.
You talk about GDP percentage, as if every country had a similar GDP per capita, and could this afford to spend similarly
Where did I ever say this?
The reality is that the US had more then enough money to both fund its military and fund its social programs, but it chose to instead fund the military and the already wealthy.
Which changes absolutely nothing from the perspective of NATO
Where did I say this?
👀
The US pumped massive percentages of its GDP into
…
Which changes absolutely nothing from the perspective of NATO
Lmao yes it does. It only doesn’t if you declare “I’m ignoring this information”, and stick your head in the sand.
That’s not reasoning, that’s weaponized incompetence.
The Internet as a whole is real broken. But Lemmy is very rapidly taking the cake for THE place where you can never discuss anything and the only responses are people who are incapable of having a conversation and are just angry that you didn’t say what they wanted to hear.
Did you expect a bunch of responses just agreeing with you? Allow me to placate that ego.
wow, so true!
I agree with your actual post, but the bitching that you’re not just getting blind praise is wild.
Nope
Baby Trump is furious.
