- cross-posted to:
- europe@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- europe@feddit.org
French President Emmanuel Macron on Saturday, February 14, urged calm and restraint after the fatal beating of a 23-year-old French youth aligned with the far-right on the sidelines of a conference by a hard-left lawmaker in the southeastern city of Lyon.
The death of the young man – identified only as Quentin – has intensified tensions between France’s far-right and radical left who are both eyeing 2027 presidential elections.
He had been hospitalized in Lyon on Thursday after being attacked while providing what his supporters said was security for a protest against an appearance by hard-left MEP Rima Hassan at the Lyon branch of the Sciences Po university.
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Far right meaning Nazi in this case?
I won’t cry any tears for dead Nazis.
Unfortunately, optics are incredibly important to win public opinion. As a radical leftist myself, I have little to no compassion for the man who died ; nonetheless I hope this doesn’t start a pattern.
Many people see these things as entirely vibes-based, so if we don’t look like the good guys, to many people that’s enough to decide we aren’t the good guys.
Mmh… I think that tribal identification is a basic problem (the us vs their conundrum): the danger is obvious, admit this general simplified view to conform the “only two collectives” and judge them by choiced individuals and not by the root ideas and what they bring, if humans cannot overcome this instinct they will remain ants that follow queens for no good reason…
The problem of course is that, bad as it may be to think this way, people (including me !) absolutely do think this way by default, unless consciously making the effort not to.
Maybe this can be deconstructed, but until then we need a good dose of “Realpolitik” that takes those biases into account, at least if we want to achieve anything concrete.
There is some truth to the “us vs them” between elites and the people, and the current elite is (somehow) very good at making a big part of the people they oppress think that “actually, you’re part of the elite too !”
I think the world needs less radical left and more militant left.
We’ve tried talking for the last 80 years or so. Its not working so well. So maybe we need to bring back the violence that defeated fascism last time.
If you’re going to adopt violence, you have to target the exact right people or you just plunge yourself into a long, dumb spiral of public outrage until whatever the organization originally meant to accomplish is lost in the news cycle of violence. People won’t remember what you represented, only what you did. And you can’t fix that with messaging, it’s just not how it works.
I can name a dozen different iconic seditious or rebellious groups in recent history and for every name read, you will see in your mind’s eye terrorism and bombings and violence, not what that group wanted to accomplish or what their goals were.
I get gnashing teeth reminding people of this fact, but Mussolini was not defeated by a plucky band of rebels who dragged him out of his bunker, he was arrested by his own king and government and handed over the opposition. We still need political action or we’re just embracing mindless chaos, we will need politics to both secure an actual victory and we will need politics to deal with the millions of people who didn’t vote for any of your actions but will still live next to us after.
“The means are the end,” to quote a line from The Dispossessed by Ursula K Le Guin (anarchist and legendary fiction writer). While I agree that we need most parts if the left for revolution (Andor does a decent job demonstrating this), I’m highly skeptical that lasting change can be built on revolution that is primarily enacted through violence.
The man who died was a far right militant, member of a group who regularly descends in the street to beat everyone not looking like their idea of a French.
I don’t think killing people is a solution. But if you think violence is sometimes justified against some people, this dude was as close as it gets.
We need less polarisation. The far left and far right are both wrong because the world is a complex place full of nuance.
Personally I consider myself left of centre, but I also find policies that are absolutely core to the left abhorrent. That means I have voted centre right in the past, or centre depending on the situation.
What is absolutely certain is this kid did not deserve to die and the people that did it should JUSTLY face the full force of the law.
“Even if your sainted grandmother is a republican, they are evil and will burn in hell for all eternity.”
- Mike Malloy
Extreme centrism is also a thing. And it is as bad as the other, and reading your comment you could find yourself in this group.
This comment section looks exactly like the comment section of a post in a right-wing place that discusses the news of a far left person being killed.
Hitler celebrated the death of leftists and leftists celebrate the death of Hitler.
Reading the comments here feels like a superhero movie where the protagonist kills one million bad guys and then forgives the final villain because violence is bad.
Are you ignoring that the context of those two are different on purpose or just missing that part?
No, I’m not ignoring the context.
There’s a reason the death penalty has been abolished in most of the world. Just because someone kills people doesn’t mean that you should kill them in turn, and celebrating deaths is similar.
Especially when it is not clearly known who the victim was.
So you’re willfully ignoring
How can I willfully ignore that for which there is no information on? For all we know, the person that was killed could have been led there under false pretenses, could have been forced to be there, was heavily abused and then emotionally exploited to be there, the beating could’ve been made because he slept with one of the attackers girlfriend, etc etc etc
There are countless explanations that could lead to this attack being absolutely unrighteous, and unless there is some more information about the backgrounds, celebrating this death is just irrational hate and tribalism.
Go get back to standing on the fence
Very mature response :)
Get a load of doctor big brain over here
rot in hell you nazi fuck.
Nazi lives don’t matter!
They really really don’t… at all.
Yeah great, let’s be the flip side of the coin instead of a force for betterment in the world. Let’s kill 23 year olds that barely have lived or learned at all and totally will never change in their lives.
The avg IQ on Lemmy is either room temperature or it’s full of edgy teenagers having their rebellion moment. It baffles me that saying “yeah, I don’t wanna live in a society where I can be lynched because some mob decided to be judge jury and executioner for a day” is heavily downvoted and gets people triggered smh
Lemmy is an echochamber of the far-left, it’s worse than Mastodon.
If the government actually did its job and stopped the fascist goons then maybe this wouldn’t have happened in the first place?
He was providing “secuity” to far right agitators, i.e he was the french equivlant of a proud boy or neo nazi. He likely started the fight that killed him. Should those leftists let him beat them to death instead?
Id save your recriminations for better souls. Nazis like him want you dead, and would kill millions of others if they could. When you expouse mass death, the ignorance of youth is no shield.
Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, the Balkans, and the Baltics all got to experience the joys of having the Nazis turfed out by opponents on the far left.
Awesome!
This toxic hateful comments dominating this discussion is the reason why I left Lemmy more than a year ago and make me want to go back to my decision. Sickening and incredible self defeating, this is not how French society will look at this murder.
Yeah of course that’s not how French society will look at the murder. But that’s not because of how much the French value life (lol, how long did it take to recognize Palestine?) or because of how noble they are, it’s because French society is racist as hell and values fascists 1000x more than the Black and Brown people the racists kill routinely. I’m sure there’s a million little Charlie Hebdos looking to one up each other in how they can blame Muslims for this as I write this comment.
And for the record, a world without fascists is a better world. What else are people gonna do with the fascists, take them to Sunday school and teach them better values?
Educator here. Wife too. Fun fact: we’ve been trying to teach them better for going on a hundred years.
France right now is a powder keg that is ready to explode at any moment.
This far-right activist was beaten to death by a street group calling themselves the Young Guards (“Jeune Gardes”) What makes this case so dangerous is that Raphael Arnault, leader of the Young Guards, is a famous French MP.
He is part of a Left-Wing Party calling themselves the French Rebellion (France Insoumise).
Raphael Arnault has been involved in street fights with the Young Guards and even sentenced to jail by a judge. However, his political party always defended him.
Now, the French Rebellion Party is getting blamed for this death. And they are facing open calls for retribution.
Things could REALLY get out of control
For the sake of accuracy, as i think the translation “France rebellion” makes it sound more ominous, i believe something closer to the meaning would be like “indomitable France”.
Fucker Macron allied himself with the RN multiple time and know he’s shocked when the country know for its manifestation is protecting itself. What wanker
I don’t think we should be beating or killing people for their political beliefs.
Most workers on the right are angry and confused. They have bought into distractions put there by our rulers, and we should be going after the source of the problem rather than the symptoms.
Their “political beliefs” are inherently violent and actively seek to oppress and cause harm to those they deem as “lesser”. Don’t try to downplay this with silvery words.
It doesn’t matter if they are angry and confused when they are actively creating a hostile environment for those they victimize. We first must protect our communities. So, they have two options: stop spouting their bullshit so we can ensure the safety and comfort of our community or be stopped by any means necessary. If they end up dead then they made their choice to die on the hill of supporting oppression.
We should be going after the root cause, yes, but first we must build our communities so that we can have the foundation to do so and we cannot accomplish that while we have fascist supporters actively breaking that community down by spreading their hatred.
Your political beliefs seem just as violent and full of hate. Congrats pal, you did the full circle. Then people wonder how stalinism happened, this way ⤴️
No, you’re thinking about the fascists. Not those who defend themselves against them.
Pal, a mirror and some more critical thinking. Good luck.
Self defense and aggression aren’t morally equal, you have to be an idiot to think that.
Take your own advice, champ.
Ahh, so you’re trying to stop violence with a “preemptive” strike? It’s better to kill them now so they don’t kill others later?
Kind of ironic, don’t you think?
The voting and response to your reasonable comments are what disappoint me most about the Fediverse. These people aren’t against violence out of principle. They’re against violence directed at their people.
There have been multiple times I’ve had to point out in politics and news communities the irony of people on the left literally dehumanizing their opponents. Apparently, people perceived as Nazi sympathizers don’t deserve trials, because they’re not even really people. We shouldn’t tolerate the intolerant, but that’s not not the same as not giving them due process. Even the literal Nazis got trials.
We know what happens when ideological extremists take power. They kill off their opponents to preserve doing things the “right” way. That happens whether they started out believing in their racial superiority or believing the workers need to rise above their oppressors. Eventually, they turn their nations into totalitarian hellholes so the “bad” guys don’t return to power. I guess we should just start shooting Commies and Nazis dead in the streets so that doesn’t happen. Also, the “centrists” who aren’t Commies or Nazis should die because they aren’t sufficiently against Commies or Nazis depending on your frame or reference.
Yes, I try to be forgiving and think it’s mostly due to a mob mentality. Everyone wants to one-up each other to show that they’re more dedicated to the cause, and eventually that leads to cheering when others are murdered for their beliefs.
You have a good point about ideological extremists taking power. It’s what happened in Nazi Germany. It’s what happened in the Soviet Union. It’s what’s happening in North Korea.
I wish we, collectively, could understand that this has more to do with human nature rather than what’s actually being discussed. Until we reach that point, we can expect to keep making the same mistakes again and again.
One if these twats basically told you you should die for defending Nazis, and all you did was say the guy shouldn’t have been beaten to death.
Your whole thing perceives ANY act of violence as escalating into extremism, how is that not the exact same kind of totalitarian black and white authoritarian ideology just defanged and turned on its head? Anyone doing violence of any kind is just as bad as Nazis, because you were fed some pacifist pseudo religious isolated morality bullshit tale at some point that you took as an absolute truth. That’s stupid. That is simply not how the real world works.
Where does self defense fit into your enlightened pacifist worldview?
Yeah, you don’t know what your talking about and you’re making assumptions that aren’t true.
Where does self defense fit into your enlightened pacifist worldview?
This wasn’t self defense, and I never proclaimed to be a pacifist. I said we should target the source rather than the symptoms.
I think you’re just angry and trying to fit in with your peers.
I think you just enjoy jerking yourself off up there on your pedestal. Fuck you and the moral high horse you rode in on.
We see you.
If you don’t remove all of the cancer and rot, it will continue to fester and grow until it kills the host.
So you think it makes more sense to target the symptom rather than the cause?
You’re not just advocating for this because it’s easier and more convenient than going after the source?
The last time fascism rose globally 70 million people died. Fascism is a cancer that needs to be cut out and destroyed or it will multiply and destroy everything and everyone in its path. It’s global cancer
Fuck your false dichotomy bullshit.
You can treat the symptoms while working to cure the cause. The two are not mutually exclusive. Each has merit and doing both simultaneously has compounding benefits.
And to you, “treating the symptoms” is beating and murdering people who disagree with you?
Specifically those who disagree with my right to live. If you disagree on any other front, there’s no reason for violence.
Oh fuck of with that disingenuous “people who disagree with you” bullshit.
You’re clearly here in bad faith.
Fuck off, fascist sympathizer.
I love when the nazi lovers out themselves.
It’s sad people like you think they’re right when they’re wrong.
What is preemptive about people fighting back against their active oppressors?
Where do you draw the line of acceptable self-defense? Or are you just one of those “AlL viOlEnCE iS bAD nO mATteR tHe cONteXT!” idiots?
What a blatant interpretation of what I said.
It isn’t preemptive. It is direct, self defense against it. They start it by engaging in inherently violent rhetoric. We then tell them to stop spouting their oppressive bullshit. If they don’t, they will be made to stop to defend the community against them and protect those who they are attempting to marginalize.
If you cannot understand this simple explanation, then you cannot be helped or are clearly arguing in bad faith.
The average layperson doesnt deserve death, the people running security deserve a beating. People running operations for Nazis should be scared for their lives.
The amount of people praising murder on the streets of France in this thread is shocking. France is not living under the Reich, murder has no excuses and it’s also incredibly self-defeating for the far-left.
Nope, this is exactly what needs to happen. Make the cost of being a Nazi so high, that they have to crawl back into their rat holes to rot.
We’re experiencing a wave of racist attacks and murders and the only thing they talk about is the attack where a fascist was killed.
We don’t even know exactly what happened yet, most of the noise is coming from Nemesis another fascist “feminist” group.Coincidentally, our biggest leftist party was unilaterally labelled “far left” by our ministry of the interio ra few days ago. (Le monde used hard left in the article, legally they are a generic leftist party)
Coincidentally also, mayoral elections are in about 4 weeks, with an uptick from said party.
Nothing to see here, France is definitely not sliding towards trumpism and fascism at a blinding speed.
From what I gather there was a group clash of 20+ people and the nazi dudes ran away leaving 1 behind who just got clobbered.
It was right extremists “counter protesting” and the dead guy seems like a professional agitator providing “security service” to right extremists.
Tl;dr: they fucked around and found out.
- testing to see if
.worldshadowbanned me - Another Horst Wessel?
Does Lemmy even have shadowbans?
I am aware it’s instance level possible.
- testing to see if
Nothing of value was lost
Before sending fake news like that, please favt check what you are posting!
“Chill out, everybody calm down. Its was just a nazi, the fucker got what was coming to him.”
The French have a proud tradition to maintain.
You go Frenchies that is based.
Why is it called “far-right” and then “radical left”
Aka the “Tubular Left” aka the “Cowabunga Left” aka the “Gnarly Left”
Michaelangelo is part of the Cowabunga left.
One is normalized and one is not
Because the left is so dope!
It’s not often I’m able to read things in a voice other than my own, but I read this one as Jason Mendoza from The Good Place and it was perfect.
Jason figured it out? Jason? Well, this is a new low. Yeah, this one hurts.
I don’t think I’ve heard of “radical left” outside of the US? In Europe I only recall “far left” and “far right”
In France the literal translation would be “extreme right” and “extreme left”.
also to claim that “the radical left is eyeing 2027 presidential elections” is pretty wild. no radical leftists will be winning any election, sadly.
radical /ˈradɪkl/ adjective adjective: radical 1. (especially of change or action) relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough. "a radical overhaul of the existing regulatory framework" 2. advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party. noun noun: radical; plural noun: radicals 1. a person who advocates thorough or complete political or social change, or a member of a political party or section of a party pursuing such aims.Radical change is literally the goal.
Denotation ignores connotation, and in the US, “radical left” has specific meaning, especially to nazis.
America has no concept of “radical left”. I can suggest something mild and end up being called a communist.
Precisely. As a progressive, what I want is generally considered pretty normal and basic in any of the other 32 OECD (“developed”) countries.
There are a few that would be “radical”, but they are a tiny minority.
Tell ya what, though, after putting up with fascist bullshit all my life, while I just want basic freedom and a social safety net, I’m willing to listen to these “radical” left. Certainly the regressive right has done fuck all for us.
That’s radical dude. That’s rad.
Radical has always been progressive in america. Right out of the civil rights movement co-opted by hippies.
If you are backing down to the nazis and letting them change the meaning of words I am going to call you a weak dog.
There is nothing radical about progressives in the US. As a progressive… we are centrist in most of the other 32 OECD (“developed”) countries.
Radical left would start with things like no private property, ownership of everything by all, things like that.
So no, friend, I’m not changing the meaning of anything. Calling progressives in the US “radical” is already changing the meaning and wussing out on what actual radical change would be.
You have this negative association with the word that is entirely adopted from the right. The civil rights movement was radical, dude.
Seems like you wish to ignore all of my points.
Fair enough.
Have a lovely day.
You ignored my points you just want to be agreed with you never engaged my points which actually contradicted you. Your point is that progressives in america aren’t progressives because progressives in other countries are more progressive? But they are still progressive, you are still progressive. But because I don’t immediate agree with you, you say I am ignoring your points, I would say that you aren’t progressive at all. Because that isn’t how discussion works, that’s hmmm. Maybe there is a name for “agree with me or else” ??
